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Incomplete Tenant Finish Plans: A Brief Vent

Papio Bldg Dept

Papio Bldg Dept

Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
1,414
Location
Papillion
I have just received my fourth set of incomplete tenant finish plans in two weeks.

Do I spend a full day writing up and quoting each code section that the plans do not provide compliance information for, or do I simply state as incomplete and note review will not be performed?

Is this a frequent issue in other jurisdictions? Is it too much to expect a door and wall schedule, dimensions, plumbing riser, mechanical plans, cabinet/counter ADA compliance elevations/specifications, energy code calc's/compliance statements? Is it too much to expect the design professional to sign and seal the drawings (front page indicates coordinating professional and no seals or signatures throughout documents)?

Grrr. It has been a long two weeks. At least this one completed the application correctly.
 
It is a constant issue in this other jurisdiction so much so that I miss the old BOCA code articles typically all chapters article 103 Construction documents which reference the MINIMUM plan information for submission relative to each code chapter. Had those printed up and stapled to a submission such as you suggest with the note rejected - resubmit with this minimum information. some was from DRP's
 
Is it too much to expect a door and wall schedule, dimensions, plumbing riser, mechanical plans, cabinet/counter ADA compliance elevations/specifications, energy code calc's/compliance statements? Is it too much to expect the design professional to sign and seal the drawings
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Create a checklist that staff or you use, kinda of a preliminary plan review to see if all the info is there. Staff can use the checklist to accept them for review or hand them back over the counter as incomplete.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Create a checklist that staff or you use, kinda of a preliminary plan review to see if all the info is there. Staff can use the checklist to accept them for review or hand them back over the counter as incomplete.
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Yep, I went the checklist route.

Cross out the things they gave you. Return checklist with the rejected plans.
 
Thank you for the input. I will give the checklist a try when my permit coordinator gets back from vacation. We have a submittal guide of information we want to see on plans, but even that could be reworked. Clearly it was not communicating what is required.

I am still amazed that 3k+ B occupancy tenant finishes come in with no dims, no schedules, one MOE, and >75' travel distances...by RDPs. I know times are tough, but how little are these guys getting paid? This is bread and butter, keep the lights on, do in their sleep, copy & paste, template work for most 1-10 sized RDP firms.
 
MtnArch said:
It's amazing how few DP's actually **do** what they're supposed to do!
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There are a lot of aspects that are amazing. My personal experience tells me that most of the time the client/owner is just as much to blame as the RDP for this culture. When times are tough, the culture becomes more cut-throat, and RDPs lower their prices and trim their project hours to the bare minimums. Currently, we are well below the acceptable minimums. I would be interested to hear how forum members feel about re-review fees? I personally don't like them, and would like to take preventitive measures, as was suggested with submittal requirments.
 
I used to write the items that never corrections down in our Tidemark case file and hand the printed part out when they came in with corrected sheets/items. I would cross off the items that were corrected and cross those off the list. Very few times did correction last more than 2 times. Even on major projects. TI's--all depended on how much screaming Pa and Ma were yelling at the city manager and how cheap they were to get a "DP' to do the work.
 
Turned over a 6000 sf rehab chane of use project to a building official and fire marshall for review

first page A-0 Code Review Plan Travel Ratings distance use construction type occupant loads site area %zoning coverage parking ratios uses declared.

6 page height area calcs for all uses mixed non seperated room by room space by space occupancy and count.

egress units ate each door to discharge.

sat down with each for 1/2 hour and walked throuh project narrative, indicated all materials, construction and stored and sales item MDS sheets with quantities

Letters for bank and permits in 2 DAYS.

DRP's Don't hide your homework in your backpack turn it in with your project it counts for extra credit

the comment from the officials was - you did my job for me.

my return comment was I had to do it any way so why should'nt you benefit!
 
Architect1281 said:
Turned over a 6000 sf rehab chane of use project to a building official and fire marshall for review first page A-0 Code Review Plan Travel Ratings distance use construction type occupant loads site area %zoning coverage parking ratios uses declared.

6 page height area calcs for all uses mixed non seperated room by room space by space occupancy and count.

egress units ate each door to discharge.

sat down with each for 1/2 hour and walked throuh project narrative, indicated all materials, construction and stored and sales item MDS sheets with quantities

Letters for bank and permits in 2 DAYS.

DRP's Don't hide your homework in your backpack turn it in with your project it counts for extra credit

the comment from the officials was - you did my job for me.

my return comment was I had to do it any way so why should'nt you benefit!
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I am fortunate enough to have worked with several RDPs like yourself. An extremely pleasant experience, and yes, ultimately, the review times are greatly reduced. I have little problem holding a mom and pops hand on a project that does not require an RDP, and in some cases I have even recommended an RDP should be consulted. However, I tend to have less patience for an RDP, that in my assumption is being paid, even though it may be minimally at best, to know the Building Codes, yet is unable to complete a construction set capable of being reviewed, let alone compliant.

Peach...I too am not a big fan of checklists for inspectors...IMO, that is, in essence, what the construction documents are. Checklists have proven helpful though for training new inspectors. They give a frame of reference, especially on larger commercial projects when finals can take several days.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Create a checklist that staff or you use, kinda of a preliminary plan review to see if all the info is there. Staff can use the checklist to accept them for review or hand them back over the counter as incomplete.
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I recommend having your city attorney review this policy before implementing it. Refusing to review "incomplete" plans can be legally problematic depending on the underlying laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations because so much of what constitutes incomplete plans is dependent on the specific details of the project.

For example, a door schedule can't be mandatory unless you have separate permit requirements for roof replacements, deck additions, and garages.

And BTW, requiring a door schedule is asinine - what should be required is code compliance.
 
what should be required is code compliance.
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Agree and that can only be determined by what is acutually built

I have had DP's submit plans for new construction that did not include the plumbing or mechanical a wall detail or even the design loads.

Some jurisdictions ask for way to much stuff. I don't want a door schedule on every project but if you have rated walls the opening protection needs to be spelled out somewhere on the plans either a door schedule or a table will suffice
 
mtlogcabin said:
Agree and that can only be determined by what is acutually builtI have had DP's submit plans for new construction that did not include the plumbing or mechanical a wall detail or even the design loads.

Some jurisdictions ask for way to much stuff. I don't want a door schedule on every project but if you have rated walls the opening protection needs to be spelled out somewhere on the plans either a door schedule or a table will suffice
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Some jurisdictions also allow the subcontractor to pull a separate plumbing permit.

Sometimes the design loads fall within the requirements for conventional construction.

Etc.

That's not to say that crappy and incomplete plans don't exist.

But what you should expect is not the same as what you actually require.
 
Some jurisdictions also allow the subcontractor to pull a separate plumbing permit.
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Pulling a permit is not the same as submitting plans for a complete project

The registered design professional in responsible charge shall be responsible for reviewing and coordinating submittal documents prepared by others, including phased and deferred submittal items, for compatibility with the design of the building.



 
brudgers said:
Some jurisdictions also allow the subcontractor to pull a separate plumbing permit.Sometimes the design loads fall within the requirements for conventional construction.

Etc.

That's not to say that crappy and incomplete plans don't exist.

But what you should expect is not the same as what you actually require.
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Very true. What we expect is not what we require. We require the minimum as established in 2006 IBC, 106.1.1, which, as mtlogcabin noted, may not require mechanical/plumbing drawings, or as you noted a door schedule. What we require can, and does, vary depending on the scope of the project. I would say determining code compliance from an unscaled/undimensioned floor plan submittal without general notes as to egress or accessibility compliance is, however, asinine.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Pulling a permit is not the same as submitting plans for a complete projectThe registered design professional in responsible charge shall be responsible for reviewing and coordinating submittal documents prepared by others, including phased and deferred submittal items, for compatibility with the design of the building.



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We do not issue permits for projects without first verifying occupancy, construction type, fire-separation, egress, and accessibility compliance (at a minimum). This requirement may be met by submitting scaled and dimensioned plans with notes clarifying compliance.

I am not asking them to provide me with a buildable construction document.

However, compliance documentation shouldn't be too much to ask.

Not sure how you verify egress compliance without some general notes as to the door width, height and hardware.

We could always simplify everything and have a compliance affidavit/statement:

I, (name), am responsible for construction compliant with the (code/code year), for a(n) (occupancy group) occupancy of type (construction type) construction.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Pulling a permit is not the same as submitting plans for a complete projectThe registered design professional in responsible charge shall be responsible for reviewing and coordinating submittal documents prepared by others, including phased and deferred submittal items, for compatibility with the design of the building.

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If it's not in their contract, then they shall most definitely not be responsible for it.

And there are plenty of jurisdictions in the world which don't require plumbing risers for simple projects - and hence plumbers are able to pull permits without drawings.
 
If you can't determine it, reject the plan and get on with life.

If you can determine it...and seriously how involved is the egress on many tenant fitouts?

And of course, white box tenant fitouts would not have energy calcs since the systems are already installed.
 
brudgers said:
If you can't determine it, reject the plan and get on with life.
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1) I couldn't determine it.

2) I rejected it.

3) I am now getting on with my life, which unfortunately means repeating steps one and two.

brudgers said:
If you can determine it...and seriously how involved is the egress on many tenant fitouts?
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I agree, for small assembly and business occupancies, egress compliance is not typically that involved. In those cases I am not requiring the AIA construction document of the year. A simple plan showing the scope of work and key compliance issues is sufficient. We even offer an accessibility packet for small businesses for compliance reference. Sometimes when you start with "How can I approve this set of plans," you start with a question, not a statement.

As for mixed use occupancies, or high occupant loads exceeding 49, which about half of our tenant fitouts do, egress can be more involved.

brudgers said:
And of course, white box tenant fitouts would not have energy calcs since the systems are already installed.
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Several developers require that their white box tenant fitouts be gutted in order to terminate the lease (typical for malls). With no lighting and only an AHU on the roof, me thinks some energy calcs would be required. At the very least, a lighting calculation of wattage per square footage is required for energy code compliance.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
which unfortunately means repeating steps one and two.
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If rereviewing plans is a burden, you might want to consider another line of work.

Just saying.
 
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