Inspector does not enforce codes

[fireguy]

This is a long post, and probably am leaving some information out.

This is the 3rd job I have done with the inspector in the last year.

My problem is he does not seem to know the codes, nor enforce the codes the same to all parties. He holds the contractor to a higher standard than those not in the trades. The last job, just finished, was in a commercial kitchen with problems with the exhaust system. There was a fire in the restuarnt, several years ago. The insurance company paid to have a new exhaust system, and suppression system installed. I did the suppression system install and passed an inspection. More importantly, it was installed to mfg requirements. The hood system was not installed to the code at that time, but passed inspection anyway. At that time, I was ignorant of any exhaust codes.

Forward to March of this year, when a new operator was interested in moving her restruant into the building. The B/O asked the State FM to inspect the exhaust system.

The main hood was OK. The main duct and 3 other ducts were made of less than 16 gauge, rivited, none of the ducts were welded or brazed, but soldered and siliconed. The sidewall fan is not listed for the application, and the clearances to combustables were unknown. I have a copy of hte FM report, and the FM required the ducts to be removed, along with the small hoods.

I also have the report from the local B/O, referring to: 1. "Per reccomendations from the State of Or Deputy Fire Marshall..........." 2. "This building department is requesting the the non-compliant ductgwork removed and new min 16 gauge stell and joints, seams and penetrations of grease ductwork welded-brazed Section 506.3.1.1 2010 OMSC."

Based upon the reports, my sheet metal man & I put together a proposal to remove all the ducts, 2 of the hoods, cap off the duct opening for the hood left in place, build a new vertical duct, remove the horizontal duct going through hte wall and use listed insulation, and use a listed access panel for cleaning purposes. We did not get the job. What was done was replace the center duct, make an access panel using a silicone sealer and use sheet metal screws to hold the panel in place. The other ducts were cut, not removed and the hoods were left in place. The job passed inspection! Of course hte inspector asked the business owner to remove the ducts, and hoods. I finished my fire system, and got paid this AM. the hoods and ducts are still in place.

I am really dissappointed in the inspector, he has inspected 5 of my jobs to date, and is usually late, or has shown up at all. This is a small office, and I am aware my specialty of fire stuff is not common. But, I expect to see myself and my competitors following the same standard. That does not happen, on this job, particulary on hte exhaust system, standards changed 3 times. I am at a loss on how to deal with this person. Other contractors have also told me of their problems with this guy and they are similar to my experience. I have suggested going to the City Mgr, but no one else wants to do that, saying they have to work with the inspector on a regular basis.

I have pictures taken to protect my company should the place catch fire. My fire system will not control a fire execpt in the main hood. I also removed the fire system from the other hoods at the direction of the inspector. If I knew how, I could post the pictures and the inspection reports, with the names and address crossed off. If I knew how.

 

[chris kennedy]

If I knew how, I could post the pictures and the inspection reports, with the names and address crossed off. If I knew how.

Check you notifications, my E-mail is there. Or check this link on how to post pics on a vB board.

 

[FM William Burns]

FG,

Q1: What type of Inspector (Mechanical or Fire)?

If the inspector is certified a means exists in most states to file a complaint with the state granting certification regulatory board to have the complaint investigated. Present factual evidence examples and documents in the complaint submittal. This prodcedure and all associated documentation could benefit you also in the event potential liability exists on a fire not being contained in the exhaust or ductwork........ just saying. As a ceritifed fire inspector; I must rely on the mechanical inspector to verify liquid tight ductwork and exhaust, clearance or means for reduction and material scheduled thickness (jurisdictional thing). If I receive a complaint from a contractor doing annual service, inspection or maintenance I have to follow through with it regardless of outcome or who's feet I step on. Your documentation in conjunction with the DSFM should be sufficient to substantiate your concerns. Keep us posted.

 

[Mark K]

The reluctance on the part of contractors and designers to complain about out of line inspectors and plan checkers is widespread. Not all of these compaints can be easily dismissed. If building departments want to promote quality they need to do more about these problems.

 

[cda]

Not sure if you can document to the city manager the porblems, and stay anonymous, if you think you can do and also copy to the inspectors highest supervisor

tv stations always need investigative reports to do

 

[TimNY]

I would send an email to the State Fire Marshal that did the inspection. I would be up front about the fact that you bid on the work and did not get it, but what was done is unsafe. Last I checked, State trumps local official.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Try educating the inspector. I remember when I started out I had to look at 3 phase electrical services for pumps installed in orange groves. I knew the code sections but was unsure about what I was looking at in the field. So I would ask the electricians to meet me in the field explain their installations based on the code requirements. After about 4 different contractors I kwew what I was looking at. I was the new guy and they where happy to show me as consistency for an inspector is equallity for the contractors.

 

[permitguy]

The state fire marshal should follow up on the violations they find. Send your inquiry directly to them, copying the local building official.

If you're bored, look for information on the Gold Rush Hotel Fire in Alaska (1970), and the subsequent litigation which found the state liable for failing to follow up on violations they identified prior to the fire (Adams v. Alaska, 1976).

 

[BSSTG]

Greetings all,

One thing you might consider is that the inspector is not really any expert with what you are doing and over time he is learning more about these subjects. I know, because I have changed the way I look at things as I learn more. A lot of this stuff associated with hoods and suppression systems is pretty complex to be sure. The first time I ever looked at one I had never even read the applicable code requirements other than once. I'm with mtlogcabin above, maybe the inspector would be receptive to feedback and education. I know I always do if it's not presented with an attitude.

BS

 

[permitguy]

I have no problem with an inspector brushing up on code requirements before they go in to do the inspection. I do it all the time. However, someone who is completely unfamiliar with the content and application should be deferring to someone else, especially where public safety is concerned. In this case, the state fire marshal gave specific findings to the local building department. There is absolutely no excuse for the local buidling department disregarding those findings and approving this job as-is.

I wonder if this isn't a case of each agency (state and local) thinking the other is taking care of it. This is precisely why I believe the agency that finds the problem should be the one to follow up. If at all possible, it should be the exact same inspector.

 

[Jobsaver]

A lack of training, and insufficient departmental staffing are likely culprits.

What is the inspector's attitude when you went to him and presented the dilemma? Offered a on-job explanation and training session for your special area of expertise? Explained how you might go about the inspection process in this circumstance?

Any solution should first entail exhausting the possibility of working one up with the person with whom you have conflict.

 

[pwood]

when i took all of my certification exams in 1992 a passing grade was 70%! that means you only have to be right 70% of the time to qualify for a job that everyone expects you to be right 100% of the time. the learning process is continueing to this day so cut the guy some slack and offer to educate him. how perfect are those of you who are slamming the poor guy?

 

[fireguy]

On a previous job, I had concerns because the used Captive Aire hood was not listed for use with a char broiler. He read the code section how we size the duct and fan for the most hazardous appliance. He then told me we would average the air movement for the char broiler, the pizza oven and range. That would meet code. he also allowed the use of non-powered return air. On that job, the GC was a cabinet maker. I raised such a fuss about the duct insulation being 1 layer, that the inspector actually went into the attic to check the insulation. The GC/cabinet maker had to put the 2nd layer on, but did not tape the second layer nor use the proper spacing for the strapping. I am not going to ask if cello tex is OK to use instead of sheet rock if it protected by a layer of sheet metal. I am not the only contractor who has problems with this inspector. And he has attended classes on the installation of exhaust systems, I saw him at the last class about changes to the OMSC, a very good class given by Guy Sperb.

I am going to e-mail the State FM my concerns about this last job. As of Saturday AM, the exhaust systems were not in a safe, coide compliant condition. My service report noted the problem with the hoods. I have worked with several inspectors, most of whom did not know the codes for commercial kitchens. But, I could as least have a conversation w/them and we worked had a fire safe kitchen when the job was done.

Thanks for the the suggestions.

 

[permitguy]

how perfect are those of you who are slamming the poor guy?

I'm not perfect, and I'm not trying to slam him. However, he had a list of specific problems that needed to be addressed from the state fire marshal, and he apparently failed to get those problems addressed.

As a newbie, I was constantly asking questions to make sure I was on the right track. If I was going out to look at something that was completely new to me, I'd either ask someone else to come along, or I'd study and ask questions before I went out.

I won't give a contractor a pass on installing code violations simply because he's new. I won't give an inspector a pass on approving code violations simply because he's new, either.

There is no shame in having more to learn, but there is shame in failing to acknowledge you have more to learn.

 

[Jobsaver]

On a previous job, I had concerns because the used Captive Aire hood was not listed for use with a char broiler. He read the code section how we size the duct and fan for the most hazardous appliance. He then told me we would average the air movement for the char broiler, the pizza oven and range. That would meet code. he also allowed the use of non-powered return air. On that job, the GC was a cabinet maker. I raised such a fuss about the duct insulation being 1 layer, that the inspector actually went into the attic to check the insulation. The GC/cabinet maker had to put the 2nd layer on, but did not tape the second layer nor use the proper spacing for the strapping. I am not going to ask if cello tex is OK to use instead of sheet rock if it protected by a layer of sheet metal. I am not the only contractor who has problems with this inspector. And he has attended classes on the installation of exhaust systems, I saw him at the last class about changes to the OMSC, a very good class given by Guy Sperb. I am going to e-mail the State FM my concerns about this last job. As of Saturday AM, the exhaust systems were not in a safe, coide compliant condition. My service report noted the problem with the hoods. I have worked with several inspectors, most of whom did not know the codes for commercial kitchens. But, I could as least have a conversation w/them and we worked had a fire safe kitchen when the job was done.

Thanks for the the suggestions.

Sounds to me like you have had sufficient interaction with this inspector to move forward with the upstream reporting of the continuing problem.

 

[icondrive]

This is a long post, and probably am leaving some information out. This is the 3rd job I have done with the inspector in the last year.

My problem is he does not seem to know the codes, nor enforce the codes the same to all parties. He holds the contractor to a higher standard than those not in the trades. The last job, just finished, was in a commercial kitchen with problems with the exhaust system. There was a fire in the restuarnt, several years ago. The insurance company paid to have a new exhaust system, and suppression system installed. I did the suppression system install and passed an inspection. More importantly, it was installed to mfg requirements. The hood system was not installed to the code at that time, but passed inspection anyway. At that time, I was ignorant of any exhaust codes.

Forward to March of this year, when a new operator was interested in moving her restruant into the building. The B/O asked the State FM to inspect the exhaust system.

The main hood was OK. The main duct and 3 other ducts were made of less than 16 gauge, rivited, none of the ducts were welded or brazed, but soldered and siliconed. The sidewall fan is not listed for the application, and the clearances to combustables were unknown. I have a copy of hte FM report, and the FM required the ducts to be removed, along with the small hoods.

I also have the report from the local B/O, referring to: 1. "Per reccomendations from the State of Or Deputy Fire Marshall..........." 2. "This building department is requesting the the non-compliant ductgwork removed and new min 16 gauge stell and joints, seams and penetrations of grease ductwork welded-brazed Section 506.3.1.1 2010 OMSC."

Based upon the reports, my sheet metal man & I put together a proposal to remove all the ducts, 2 of the hoods, cap off the duct opening for the hood left in place, build a new vertical duct, remove the horizontal duct going through hte wall and use listed insulation, and use a listed access panel for cleaning purposes. We did not get the job. What was done was replace the center duct, make an access panel using a silicone sealer and use sheet metal screws to hold the panel in place. The other ducts were cut, not removed and the hoods were left in place. The job passed inspection! Of course hte inspector asked the business owner to remove the ducts, and hoods. I finished my fire system, and got paid this AM. the hoods and ducts are still in place.

I am really dissappointed in the inspector, he has inspected 5 of my jobs to date, and is usually late, or has shown up at all. This is a small office, and I am aware my specialty of fire stuff is not common. But, I expect to see myself and my competitors following the same standard. That does not happen, on this job, particulary on hte exhaust system, standards changed 3 times. I am at a loss on how to deal with this person. Other contractors have also told me of their problems with this guy and they are similar to my experience. I have suggested going to the City Mgr, but no one else wants to do that, saying they have to work with the inspector on a regular basis.

I have pictures taken to protect my company should the place catch fire. My fire system will not control a fire execpt in the main hood. I also removed the fire system from the other hoods at the direction of the inspector. If I knew how, I could post the pictures and the inspection reports, with the names and address crossed off. If I knew how.

sounds more like incompetence to me