IRC def closet

[rogerpa]

Well I have seen them work however since all afci breakers have 30ma gfci built in, except GE, it is sometimes the gfci doing the work but that is a totally different function.

Not true. The currently required Combination Type AFCI's (AWAH) do not have the 30ma gfci built in.

A breaker will detect heat if it is generated at the breaker location but a small arc may not be detected by a breaker until it is too late.

UL 1699 Scope 1.3 These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections.

A person named F. Pashchen in 1889 published a law which sets out what has become known as Paschen's Law. He determined the relationship between breakdown voltage, the gap between two metal plates, and the pressure. With air as the gas, the minimum voltage is 327V. The peak of a 120VAC sine wave is only 170V, and thus continuous low current arcing is, by a law of physics, not possible with copper-copper. Thus claims that a Combination AFCI will respond to arcing at a break in a conductor or a loose connection flies in the face of a law of physics.

 

[Dennis]

Not true. The currently required Combination Type AFCI's (AWAH) do not have the 30ma gfci built in.

I wouldn't wager any money if I were you-- all exept GE have gfci built in and I would bet your life on it? Seriously, even the combo afci have gfci in it. This is why GE can use 2- sp afci with handle ties and have it function as a dp afci. The other brands cannot do it since they have gfci built in.

This from Eaton

The Branch-Feeder and the Combination Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters both have equipment level ground fault circuit protection (30mA), not the Class A type “people

protection” ground fault protection (5mA). Therefore, during the installation of an AFCI,

precautions should be taken to ensure wiring anomalies that would normally cause GFI’s

to trip (such as grounded neutrals and shared neutrals) should be avoided.

 

[ICE]

Does anyone know why the manufactures combined AFCI and GFCI at 30mA? It seems that the GFCI would limit the applications. Another question is why was 30mA installed as opposed to 3mA to 5mA?

The only thing that I can think of is that AFCI architecture is built upon GFCI.

 

[Dennis]

Not sure how that happened but I can tell you that SQ. D already has a breaker that is both afci and gfci (4-6ma) and others soon to follow. Ge said it may be a year before they have one.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Do you have the time to read all of the CMP in reference to this information: Combination AFCI; what they can do and not do

 

[chris kennedy]

Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.

Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.:beatdhrs

 

[ICE]

Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.:beatdhrs

I could'a told you that.

 

[Dennis]

Hate to go of topic (or perhaps back on topic), had a temp for test inspection today and showed the inspector the FBC def of closet (same as IRC) and inspector agreed no AFCI required as there are no provisions for storage.Please feel free to continue the merits of AFCI's debate.

I disagree with that interpretation --- is this area not similar to a closet???? IMO the intent is to afci all areas except a few and I don't believe your area would be the exception.

 

[SCBO1]

That sure leaves the door open to require AFCI. My take on it is that a room similar to a closet would include accommodation for storage.

I agree with the Dancing Pencil and Dennis.

pc1

 

[Dennis]

Do you have the time to read all of the CMP in reference to this information: Combination AFCI; what they can do and not do

Francis I don't understand this presentation. He says the combos don't have gfp protection and that is not correct. His point is that the older branch circuit afci were better than the combo afci BECAUSE THEY HAD GFCI PROTECTION (30 MA ) .

I just called Eaton and they said both the combo and branch circuit afci have gfp (30 ma). Now I also called Seimens and after 15 minutes they told me that theirs did not have GFP---

So the fact that some manufacturers took out the gfp of the combo afci may be an issue as this guys states but is that the fault of the code making panel or the manufacturer????

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Dennis, that link I posted provides a link for further reading however in agreement with you as evident; trust but verify. The footnote not shown in the slide would have invited that the "newer" version combination AFCI are not required to provide GFI protection; Seimens case in point.

Eaton Fire-Guard advertised theirs "AFCI Tester and Circuit Analyzer to verify proper wiring in a circuit. It's the only tester with GFI function and Line-Neutral test feature"

Otherwise hoped the information was useful to further clarify the claim about series arc-fault protection.