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is a fence required when a restaurant has outdoor dining against water per 2021

thanks
Yikes said:
View attachment 15138

The OP didn't say it wasn't a pool. He only said "no boats".
And even if it was a pool, I can't tell from the photo that was provided how people get onto the wooden platform. Is it a small bridge. and does the bridge have a barrier that we can't see because objects are in the way?

Not enough info provided by the O.P.

Here in California, there is a requirement in 11B-247.1.2.6 for detectable warnings on "reflecting pools", but there are no other explicit requirements for guards adjacent to water.


Again, referencing my own state's code, the CBC 202 definition of "grade" is specific to "ground, paving or sidewalk".
GRADE (Adjacent Ground Elevation). [DSA-AC & HCD 1-AC] The lowest point of elevation of the finished surface of the ground, paving or sidewalk within the area between the building and the property line or, when the property line is more than 5 feet (1524 mm) from the building, between the building and a line 5 feet (1524 mm) from the building. See Health and Safety Code Section 19955.3(d).
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yes there's a walkway over to the deck in the water
 
bellak said:
no grade right on water

no grade right on water
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For sake of discussion, let's call it a pond.

1. How far below the surface of the water is the bottom of the pond, where your feet would touch mud or rocks or a pond liner?

2. How far below the surface of the dining patio deck is the bottom of the pond, where your feet would touch mud or rocks or a pond liner?
 
Yikes said:
For sake of discussion, let's call it a pond.

1. How far below the surface of the water is the bottom of the pond, where your feet would touch mud or rocks or a pond liner?

2. How far below the surface of the dining patio deck is the bottom of the pond, where your feet would touch mud or rocks or a pond liner?
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3 feet
 
Since you have a drop of more than 30" from the walking surface to the bottom of the pool/pond/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I would say you definitely need guards.
 
bellak said:
thanks

yes there's a walkway over to the deck in the water
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The first thing that comes to mind is "WHY", water, bugs, SC, food and drinks, what a mix in July and August.

The second question is bellak, what is your part in this project?

Yes its a cool picture, but I am not sure it violates any minimum building code requirement in SC, and without being able to compare plans vs the as built environment, I still do not see enough information to make the call.

I question the measurement notation of 3ft in posts #28 & #29, as most water feature installations like this normally stay within the range of 12-24 inches in depth to prevent swimming pool barrier codes kicking in.

If it is 3ft deep, my question is it like a koi pond? and though the pond might be more than 30-inches deep, the next question is, is it deeper than 30-inches within 36-inches of the deck edge?

Way to many questions still open IMO...
 
No offense bellak, but I agree with tbz, way too many questions left open, and your terse answers are not helping the analysis.
Without very specific information, I don't think there is a way to answer your original post. We don't even know if the patio in question is located in SC, the applicable code under which it was built, or even if it is an existing condition (since your post #4 response implies a future tense).

I am interpreting your short responses as a reticence to supply specifics that may identify the specific project. The choice is yours, of course, but it limits our ability to understand what are currently gray areas of interpretation. Is that an issue here? Do you represent a building owner, the operator, the insurer, or maybe a potential claimant/ litigator?
 
BN4537 said:
Since you have a drop of more than 30" from the walking surface to the bottom of the pool/pond/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I would say you definitely need guards.
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If it is a swimming pool, I stand by my comment that pools don't need guards, they need a secured barrier around the perimeter of the designated pool area, and the photo and info provided does not help us determine if that is the approach taken here.
 
Yikes said:
If it is a swimming pool, I stand by my comment that pools don't need guards, they need a secured barrier around the perimeter of the designated pool area, and the photo and info provided does not help us determine if that is the approach taken here.
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Shirley it is not a swimming pool.....Otherwise my cannonball is really going to screw up someone's scallops wrapped in bacon....
 
steveray said:
Shirley it is not a swimming pool.....Otherwise my cannonball is really going to screw up someone's scallops wrapped in bacon....
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Yep, splash zones around a pool can really mess up someone's pina colada.

Look, I realize the pool argument has some kind of practical life safety limit. I can't have the dining patio 200' above the water's surface and say "hey it's water not ground below, so it doesn't need fall protection".
I am saying that if the bottom of pool was less than 30" below deck surface, none of us would think a guard was needed; but since it is over 30", then it enters a gray area of interpretation of the word "ground", and the function of the space and the water area.
 
Beyond the strictures of the code is common sense. If the ultimate conclusion is that no barrier is required per code, what’s going to prevent people from ending up in the water? Unless that’s part of the entertainment, there is a problem.
 
If it's a swimming pool, what prevents dining within the pool barrier and no barrier between dining and pool edge? Seems common in my experience.

There are waterfront walks in many communities, and some have dining. I rarely see guards (and it's deep water). Images of San Antonio Riverwalk suggest no guards in some areas where there is dining.

Not finding the IBC is much help.
 
ICE said:
Beyond the strictures of the code is common sense. If the ultimate conclusion is that no barrier is required per code, what’s going to prevent people from ending up in the water? Unless that’s part of the entertainment, there is a problem.
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ICE, I am with you on the whole "WHY", but as we all know that has very little to do with whether it is a state or local building code violation.

Steve"y"ray, with all the crazy water features in CT, how many situations with reflecting ponds do you see deeper than 12-18 inches when they don't want a guard in place?

This seems either to have had real detailed work done to comply with code for the look they wanted or very little, but don't we need to give the local AHJ the benefit of the doubt that they looked at this with at least half the same detailed questions posed by those here?

One of the main things that peaked my questions and makes me think there is way more here than meets your eyes is the OP's response in post#25, you walk through the water to get over to the wood "deck surface", unless I am reading that wrong based on this alone I will venture the 3ft depth note might be someplace but what is designated as a walking surface of the plans and what is not! Just not within 36-inches of a designated walking surface.

The lack of additional posting and the OP's first post using the word "FENCE" leads me to think they have nothing to do with actual code enforcement and more to do with personal opinions.

As for me, I like food but no matter how good the food was, I would pick a different place as I find that when they spend that much money on the look you normally pay more than the food might even be worth, and the whole atmosphere thing, well I will leave that to "Forest Gump" to explain!
 
San Antonio riverwalk seems to operate just fine with minimal handrails. Where there are tables along the edge, they do have rails.
 
tbz said:
Steve"y"ray, with all the crazy water features in CT, how many situations with reflecting ponds do you see deeper than 12-18 inches when they don't want a guard in place?

As for me, I like food but no matter how good the food was, I would pick a different place as I find that when they spend that much money on the look you normally pay more than the food might even be worth, and the whole atmosphere thing, well I will leave that to "Forest Gump" to explain!
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12-18 I don’t care about….at all 30” drop I might and calling it a swimming pool would have to deal with that…
 
e hilton said:
San Antonio riverwalk seems to operate just fine with minimal handrails. Where there are tables along the edge, they do have rails.
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Suggests it safer to walk along the edge than sit along the edge. In theatre balconies I try to put first row circulation behind first row of seats to avoid circulation at the edge. Swivel seats or seats you can slide into from the side seem to make it safer.
 
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