Is a sub panel required for kitchen remodel?

[Jpiezo]

We are remodeling our kitchen in California and the contractor has indicated placing a sub panel in the hallway near the kitchen. We are planning to upgrade our service panel prior to the remodel to 200 Amps with sufficient slots to add all required breakers to support the remodel. Is a sub panel required by code?

My concern is both that an interior subpanel is an eye sore, and AFGI and CFGI breakers can hum or buzz, the location is near our bedroom. So, I do not want to pay for something we will be unhappy with if it makes sounds that affect our sleep.

Thanks in advance,

Jon

 

[ICE]

A sub-panel is not required by code. The contractor may want to place a panel near the kitchen in order to lesson the work and or expense of running cable to the main panel. A smart electrical contractor from my past would place a sub-panel in the garage and make every kitchen counter receptacle a home run.

I have not heard of AFCI/GFCI breakers humming. If they are humming it's because they don't know the words and are fixing to become a real problem.

 

[Jpiezo]

A sub-panel is not required by code. The contractor may want to place a panel near the kitchen in order to lesson the work and or expense of running cable to the main panel. A smart electrical contractor from my past would place a sub-panel in the garage and make every kitchen counter receptacle a home run.

I have not heard of AFCI/GFCI breakers humming. If they are humming it's because they don't know the words and are fixing to become a real problem.

Hilarious!! I’ll teach the breakers the words to prevent a future problem. Once I learn them…

Thank you! I hadn’t heard of a sub panel requirement. Now if I could only find a EC that will upgrade the panel on T&M rather than flat rate. I’ll handle the permit and utility coordination. Considered upgrading myself since it is quite simple, however I expect the inspector to give more scrutiny on a home owner upgrade.

Thanks again!!

 

[ICE]

Considered upgrading myself since it is quite simple, however I expect the inspector to give more scrutiny on a home owner upgrade.

Thanks again!!

Oh you'welcome.

Famous last words are "since it is quite simple".

I don't speak for your inspector but will tell you that I gave them all as much scrutiny as I could muster. Often a homeowner did just as well as a contractor and a contractor did just as poorly as a homeowner....Or was it the other way around?

Seems to me that an owner could replicate a drawing to the point of being impeccably neat but the YouTube video had it all wrong. And the contractor, well he owns a home too.

 

[Genduct]

A sub-panel is not required by code. The contractor may want to place a panel near the kitchen in order to lesson the work and or expense of running cable to the main panel. A smart electrical contractor from my past would place a sub-panel in the garage and make every kitchen counter receptacle a home run.

I have not heard of AFCI/GFCI breakers humming.

If they are humming it's because they don't know the words and are fixing to become a real problem.

A Code Official with a Sense of Humor? Unheard Of!

 

[ICE]

A Code Official with a Sense of Humor? Unheard Of!

And it got me into trouble more than once.

 

[tbz]

Personally, an electrical contractor suggesting sub-panels is smart.

I am not from the west coast, but every home I ever worked on, I always suggested a sub-panel near the kitchen and one on every level of the home.

In my area, most homes and I am dating my age here, normally have a mud room entry with the washer dryer and that was normally off the kitchen and the garage. The sub-panel for the kitchen was located normally behind the open door in the mud room, which leads into the kitchen or hallway.

The second floor the sub-panel was located behind the open door to the master bedroom, hence close the door and the sub-panel was there, you can hang a picture over it. Things have changed and I am not sure if that location is allowed anymore. But sub-panels are not that large and nothing a picture can't hide once the inspectors are gone.

All homes in my area I have worked on have basements and the main panel is normally either in the basement or in the garage at the closest corner of the home to the utility entry.

And that west coast thing of the panel on the exterior of the home, who wants to have to go outside in the rain the onetime something trips in a storm.

A properly wired home with quality products should not have breakers and switches that hum.... except for those motor/fan controls, and well I don't have any because I can't stand the hum either.

So no, a sub-panel is not required, but in my opinion is smart, and I would give the EC points for suggesting it, not hold it against them.

As to doing the work yourself, if you work for a firm or company where you have steady income and lots of time off, go for it, you sound like you have enough A.D.D. in you to make sure everything is done correctly.

I on the other hand work for myself, and though I do my own renovation work now, when I had a more hectic schedule it was cheaper to pay the EC, even though I knew it was a lot cheaper to do it myself, because my time doing what I do every day for a living made me more income than anything I would come close to saving.

But as to the OP, personally the sub-panel IMO is a smart thing, though not required by code.

 

[tbz]

And it got me into trouble more than once.

Before I leave this world, I would love the know why adding humor always gets people in trouble, IMO ICE, you would have been well welcomed on the site, even with the strict hold on code enforcement. There is a difference expecting things to be done correctly and overstepping what you believe is correct.

 

[SCBO1]

But as to the OP, personally the sub-panel IMO is a smart thing, though not required by code.

Agree

 

[SCBO1]

I heard the girls in the office laugh the other day at City Hall, I think someone might have told a joke? I'm pretty sure if it were a joke it wasn't told by an inspector!

"There's no crying in baseball and no laughing at City Hall!"

 

[Youre1946]

We are remodeling our kitchen in California and the contractor has indicated placing a sub panel in the hallway near the kitchen. We are planning to upgrade our service panel prior to the remodel to 200 Amps with sufficient slots to add all required breakers to support the remodel. Is a sub panel required by code?

My concern is both that an interior subpanel is an eye sore, and AFGI and CFGI breakers can hum or buzz, the location is near our bedroom. So, I do not want to pay for something we will be unhappy with if it makes sounds that affect our sleep.

Thanks in advance,

Jon



And while you’re planning your remodel, consider giving some thought to the kitchen or bar area aesthetics—adding a stylish wallpaper bar can really elevate the space and make it feel more finished and inviting.

Hi Jon,


In most cases, a subpanel isn’t strictly required by code—it really depends on the number of circuits you need and the layout of your electrical system. If your main panel has enough capacity and slots, you might be able to feed all the new kitchen circuits directly from there.


That said, some contractors prefer a subpanel near the kitchen to keep wiring runs shorter and neater. Your concerns about noise are valid—AFGI and CFGI breakers can sometimes hum, especially under load. Placing a subpanel near a bedroom could definitely be annoying if you’re sensitive to those sounds.


You might want to discuss alternative locations with your electrician—maybe a pantry, garage, or utility area where noise won’t disturb sleeping areas. Also, make sure any breakers installed are high-quality and properly torqued, as loose connections can increase buzzing.

 

[BN4537]

AFGI and CFGI breakers can hum or buzz

My new panel and AFCI/GFCI breakers do not buzz. They are Square D. If they are buzzing, I would be replacing them as defective.

 

[ICE]

Your concerns about noise are valid—AFGI and CFGI breakers can sometimes hum, especially under load.

I have never encountered breakers making noise so I asked Grok.

Yes, your statement is correct. Both Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) and Combination Arc-Fault/Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter (CFGI) breakers can produce a humming noise, particularly when under electrical load. This hum is typically caused by the internal electronics or the trip mechanism vibrating as current flows through the breaker. The noise is generally normal and not indicative of a malfunction, but it can be noticeable in quiet environments. If the humming is excessively loud or accompanied by other issues (e.g., frequent tripping or overheating), it may warrant inspection by a qualified electrician to ensure proper operation.

Note that a stand alone GFCI is not mentioned. I wonder if certain manufacturers are more prone to this?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Before I leave this world, I would love the know why adding humor always gets people in trouble, IMO ICE, you would have been well welcomed on the site, even with the strict hold on code enforcement. There is a difference expecting things to be done correctly and overstepping what you believe is correct.

Because property owners all seem to think that their problem is IMPORTANT!!! and that any attempt to lighten the atmosphere by injecting humor is disrespectful and does not show a proper appreciation of how IMPORTANT!!! their situation is.

 

[henryjordan]

"Good question! Kitchens usually need a lot of dedicated circuits for appliances, so adding a sub panel can sometimes make things easier and safer. It really depends on the existing electrical setup and how many new appliances you’re adding."

 

[tbz]

The simple question is how far do you want to walk to reset a beaker or turn a circuit off.

Being in the North I have always had one of those things called a basement, the main service panel goes in the basement, then a sub-panel on the first floor near the kitchen/garage entry, and then a 2nd sub-panel on the 2nd floor, normally in the master bedroom.

Why someone wants to walk to another another level yet alone outside to turn off or reset a circuit breaker is beyond my comprehension.

I am told many times that I am so cheap my tennis shoes squeak when I walk, but I would not even think of doing a renovation on a kitchen and not installing a sub-panel near the kitchen and yes, inside.

They still do make them things called pictures and you can still hang them on walls right?