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Is it an accessible parking space?

Mr. Inspector

Mr. Inspector

SAWHORSE
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Nov 28, 2009
Messages
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Location
Poconos/eastern PA
Did an inspection the other day on a building that is undergoing alterations affecting an area containing a primary function which the code then requires an accessible route to it. The route between the building and the accessible parking space had many cracks and uneven surfaces. I told them thy need to repair this. But the code does not require an accessible parking space when doing alterations only a route from one if there is an existing accessible parking space.
The accessible parking space only had a short accessible parking sign, no linage or access aisle and too much of a slope to comply as an accessible parking space.

This made me think later that if the accessible parking space does not comply 100% to the code is it really an accessible parking space and can I require an accessible route from it to the building?

No definition of an accessible parking space in the ICC A117.1 but definition of accessible describes a site, building, facility or portion thereof that complies with this standard. Since the space does not comply to this standard it can't be considered an accessible parking space?
 
IMPO, if a stall does not meet the standards, it can't be considered an accessible parking space.
Can you require an accessible parking space(s)?

If there are no accessible parking spaces, there does not need to be an accessible route.

Are there accessible routes to the Public way? Do they comply?
 
IEBC Section 306.2 requires existing buildings to comply with the alteration and existing building requirements of ANSI/ICC A117.1. IEBC Section 306.5, regarding accessibility for changes of occupancy, directs you to Section 306.7 for alterations. IEBC Section 306.7 requires compliance with IBC Chapter 11. IBC Chapter 11, Section 1104.1, requires an accessible route within the site from accessible parking spaces to the accessible building entrance.

ANSI/ICC A117.1 Section 502 has the requirements for accessible parking spaces, and Chapter 4 covers accessible routes. So, if the parking space and the route from the parking space to the building entrance do not comply with those requirements, then they are not accessible and are in violation of the IEBC.

Additionally, 2010 ADA Standards, Section 206.2, requires an accessible route from site arrival points to the accessible building or facility, and accessible parking spaces need to comply with Section 502 and the accessible route with Chapter 4. Noncompliance with the ADA will leave the owner open to a DOJ complaint and potential lawsuit(s).
 
So, because the existing accessible space is not in 100% compliance you think that would then allow you not to provide an accessible path from it? That makes no sense
 
[BE] ACCESSIBLE ROUTE. A continuous, unobstructed
path that complies with Chapter 11.

It includes the parking...

SECTION 1106
PARKING AND PASSENGER LOADING FACILITIES
1106.1 General. Parking shall comply with Sections 1106.2
through 1106.8. Passenger loading zones shall comply with
Section 1106.9.
1106.2 Required. Where parking is provided, accessible
parking spaces shall be provided
 
Not sure about ANSI 117.1, but here in California the division of the State Architect has defined the "Path Of Travel" as "connecting a particular area with an exterior approach (including sidewalks, streets and parking areas)".

I've had plan checkers interpret this to mean a remodel per ADAS/CBC 11B-202.4 must have an accessible path of travel to the available parking area, even when that parking area does not have an accessible parking stall.

1669927622802.png
 
steveray said:
[BE] ACCESSIBLE ROUTE. A continuous, unobstructed
path that complies with Chapter 11.

It includes the parking...

SECTION 1106
PARKING AND PASSENGER LOADING FACILITIES
1106.1 General. Parking shall comply with Sections 1106.2
through 1106.8. Passenger loading zones shall comply with
Section 1106.9.
1106.2 Required. Where parking is provided, accessible
parking spaces shall be provided
Click to expand...


We use 2018 ICC codes
Accessible Route is only in Section 1104
Parking and Passenger Loading Facilities is in a different section (1106) which does not call it an accessible route anywhere in this section.

Also the IEBC requires an accessible parking spaces and an accessible route for only a change of occupancy for the whole building (this was only a partial change of occupancy and alterations). I would think it would also say an accessible parking space would be required for alterations or/and partial change of occupancy if it was required, not just an accessible route.
 
JPohling said:
So, because the existing accessible space is not in 100% compliance you think that would then allow you not to provide an accessible path from it? That makes no sense
Click to expand...
Here is what the DOJ ADA 2010 states on maintenance of accessible features (I think there is also similar language in the ICC):
§ 36.211 Maintenance of accessible features.

(a) A public accommodation shall maintain in operable working condition those features of facilities and equipment that are required to be readily accessible to and usable by persons with disabilities by the Act or this part.
(b) This section does not prohibit isolated or temporary interruptions in service or access due to maintenance or repairs.
(c) If the 2010 Standards reduce the technical requirements or the number of required accessible elements below the number required by the 1991 Standards, the technical requirements or the number of accessible elements in a facility subject to this part may be reduced in accordance with the requirements of the 2010 Standards.
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
Here is what the DOJ ADA 2010 states on maintenance of accessible features (I think there is also similar language in the ICC):
§ 36.211 Maintenance of accessible features.

(a) A public accommodation shall maintain in operable working condition those features of facilities and equipment that are required to be readily accessible to and usable by persons with disabilities by the Act or this part.
(b) This section does not prohibit isolated or temporary interruptions in service or access due to maintenance or repairs.
(c) If the 2010 Standards reduce the technical requirements or the number of required accessible elements below the number required by the 1991 Standards, the technical requirements or the number of accessible elements in a facility subject to this part may be reduced in accordance with the requirements of the 2010 Standards.
Click to expand...


I don't enforce ADA. I don't know of a thing like that in the IBC. We don't inspect or enforce maintenance of anything here. Building was built before we had codes, I don't think the parking space ever complied to code, not sure when the accessible parking sign was put up.
 
Yikes said:
Not sure about ANSI 117.1, but here in California the division of the State Architect has defined the "Path Of Travel" as "connecting a particular area with an exterior approach (including sidewalks, streets and parking areas)".

I've had plan checkers interpret this to mean a remodel per ADAS/CBC 11B-202.4 must have an accessible path of travel to the available parking area, even when that parking area does not have an accessible parking stall.

View attachment 9821
Click to expand...
I was told the same...."get them into the building"....they can be dropped off in a paking lot even if it doesn't have a compliant space. Just make an accessible path to the entry.
 
Local zoning may require the spaces and route also, no work required. We have owners do the parking spaces for business license inspections if not provided as well as a route to the door.
 
If a parking space that doesn't meet 100% ADASAD or ANSI A117.1 isn't accessible, than 90% of the accessible parking spaces in the country would probably fail.
 
Paul Sweet said:
If a parking space that doesn't meet 100% ADASAD or ANSI A117.1 isn't accessible, than 90% of the accessible parking spaces in the country would probably fail.
Click to expand...
I agree.

It would be the same thing for restrooms around the country. We see changes done to them after the C. O. was issued all the time which makes them not comply as an accessible restroom all the time.

Definition from 2018 IBC

[BE] ACCESSIBLE. A site, building, facility or portion
thereof that complies with Chapter 11.

Then of course chapter 11 sends you to ICC-A117.1 which has the same definition. So if the parking space or anything else does not comply to code they are not "Accessible" according to the definition, so I can't enforce them to have an accessible route to an parking space (when required in the IEBC) that does not completely comply to the code as accessible.

This is how I look at it but you can change my mind.

If you disagree with me and think they are still accessible if they do not comply fully to the code how many of the code requirements would it take to make it accessible? It looks like there are about 12 sections to comply to in ICC-117.1 for a normal accessible parking space in a parking lot. Would you say if the parking space complies to 50% of them it would be accessible? More or less?
 
I would say that an accessible feature is still an accessible feature even if it has deficiencies. It is not fully accessible. Try parking in an accessible parking space that is deficient to the letter of the code and try and argue your way out of that ticket on the basis that it is not an accessible parking space.
 
A parking space that falls short of full compliance is still usable by a large number of disabled people, such as people using canes or walkers, or younger fit people in wheelchairs, even though an older weaker person in a wheelchair might not be able to use it, and it requires an accessible route.
 
JPohling said:
I would say that an accessible feature is still an accessible feature even if it has deficiencies.
Click to expand...
This seems to me that goes against the code definition.

At the site I was talking about the only thing this parking space had was a old rusty 2' high sign that said "H D" . No painted lines or anything else. But if you look real hard you can see a faded handicap symbol under the dirt, You wouldn't see it from inside of a car.
 
Rick18071 said:
This seems to me that goes against the code definition.

At the site I was talking about the only thing this parking space had was a old rusty 2' high sign that said "H D" . No painted lines or anything else. But if you look real hard you can see a faded handicap symbol under the dirt, You wouldn't see it from inside of a car.
Click to expand...
I can guarantee you that I can find a deficiency in nearly 100% of all accessible features. So your saying that these are no longer accessible features?
 
Rick18071 said:
This seems to me that goes against the code definition.

At the site I was talking about the only thing this parking space had was a old rusty 2' high sign that said "H D" . No painted lines or anything else. But if you look real hard you can see a faded handicap symbol under the dirt, You wouldn't see it from inside of a car.
Click to expand...
The problem with your definition is at what point does it not become a handicap parking space? Wrong color paint, rust and sign, wrong width, etc., which ones would have to be wrong to no longer considered a handicap parking space?
 
It's not my definition, it's the code. They could of changed it to;

BE] ACCESSIBLE. A site, building, facility or portion
thereof that complies with part of Chapter 11.

This parking space has no lines at all and is on a slope. All it has is a 2' high sign that says H C. It would be better if someone dropped off a disabled person closer to the building where it's level.
Does this make this spot near the building an Accessible Passenger Loading Zone even though it does not comply with chapter 11 and ICC 117.1 just like you think about the parking space?
 
Rick18071 said:
So if the parking space or anything else does not comply to code they are not "Accessible" according to the definition, so I can't enforce them to have an accessible route to an parking space (when required in the IEBC) that does not completely comply to the code as accessible.
Click to expand...
Under this analogy, if a police officer pulls over my vehicle for speeding and also for missing a license plate, can I get out of the speeding ticket by claiming I was not driving a legal motor vehicle?
 
I think we are arguing semantics...It IS NOT "accessible", but was it intended to be or not when it was constructed or altered?....That is the question
 
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