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Is it an accessible parking space?

Rick,

Here in lies the question, the fact it is an alteration and that they have initiated a handicap parking space by installing the sign in the first place, if the sign was not there, then I would agree. However, since the property has a sign, the intent was from the property owner to provide the handicap parking space, its not your fault it was not installed correctly, the sign is there in place for the unknowing to use as noted.

Not sure you can make them fix the actual parking spot, but from where I sit there needs to be a route to the designated spot simply because the sign is there.

Definition or not

That is the way I see it, and remember that Feds passed ADA in 92, so any work done after that even if PA did not have codes for that area unit after 2004 there still was a requirement they did not follow that you don't have jurisdiction over, unless the area was built prior to 1992.
 
tbz said:
Here in lies the question, the fact it is an alteration and that they have initiated a handicap parking space by installing the sign in the first place, if the sign was not there, then I would agree. However, since the property has a sign, the intent was from the property owner to provide the handicap parking space, its not your fault it was not installed correctly, the sign is there in place for the unknowing to use as noted.

Not sure you can make them fix the actual parking spot, but from where I sit there needs to be a route to the designated spot simply because the sign is there.
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So if I go back and the sign is no longer there (and I may have forgotten there was one there) the accessible route to it will no longer be required?
 
As long as a facility itself has a handicap parking space you are correct. However even though this 1 doesn't meet the strict definition of the code requirements it is a handicap parking space and answer such building will need one or possibly more after the work is completed.
 
Rick18071 said:
So if I go back and the sign is no longer there (and I may have forgotten there was one there) the accessible route to it will no longer be required?
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If the alteration per PA reg,s does not require that compliant HD parking spaces be installed, aka you can require it trigger, but only if there is one then you have jurisdiction for an accessible route, and there are no parking spaces designated by one form or another for the common visitor to see hey thats a HC spot, then yes, no sign no requirement for you to expand on.

However, if there was one there IMO and someone took it away, I would call them out on it. The simplest way I have found to do this is Google maps street view. IF you can see it from there it existed.

Not sure how much coverage Carbon County area has with google maps, just tried using it in Jim Thorpe just the other day and I was able to see enough to read the manhole covers looking for sewer covers and sanitary covers to save me a 65-mile round trip. Stayed in the 68 rather than the out in the 23.

Just the way I see it
 
Having only a sign to make it an accessible parking is like putting the symbol for handicap on a rest room door makes it an accessible restroom even though nothing compiles inside of it. A person would not expect they could get stuck inside with a wheel chair because of no turning or maneuvering space. It would be safer with no sign.

If this parking space has a sign indicating that it is accessible a disabled person would expect it to be safe for them and not have a bad slope with space to get the wheel chair out. When they come back to the car someone could of parked in the space they need for the wheel chair. It would seem safer to me not to have the sign at all.
 
Rick18071 said:
Having only a sign to make it an accessible parking is like putting the symbol for handicap on a rest room door makes it an accessible restroom even though nothing compiles inside of it. A person would not expect they could get stuck inside with a wheel chair because of no turning or maneuvering space. It would be safer with no sign.

If this parking space has a sign indicating that it is accessible a disabled person would expect it to be safe for them and not have a bad slope with space to get the wheel chair out. When they come back to the car someone could of parked in the space they need for the wheel chair. It would seem safer to me not to have the sign at all.
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I would agree it is probably safer for no sign to be there for a user, if the spot does not comply, but the fact of the matter is the sign is there.

I am not up on the IPMC or the IEBC to these levels, but was always told go for the simplest path of travel, let the others argue the gray areas.
  1. Alteration requires an accessible path to the designated handicap parking
  2. Handicap parking sign is in place designating a location to travel to.
  3. So the way I see it
    1. Point "A" is the alteration area
    2. Point "B" is the designated parking spot with the intended existing Handicap sign
    3. Point "C", connect point "A" to Point "B"
If they disagree with your call have them put it down on paper, make the call and pass it up the food chain if they don't like your decision.
 
306.3 Maintenance and repair. A facility that is constructed or altered to be accessible shall be maintained accessible during occupancy. Required accessible means of egress shall be maintained during construction, demolition, remodeling or alterations and additions to any occupied building.
Exception: Existing means of egress need not be maintained
where approved temporary means of egress and
accessible means of egress systems and facilities are
provided.
306.3.1 Prohibited reduction in accessibility. An alteration that decreases or has the effect of decreasing accessibility of a building, facility or element, thereof,
below the requirements for new construction at the time of the alteration is prohibited.
 
If the parking space was marked before ADA, and the jurisdiction hadn't adopted ANSI A117.1, just putting up a sign might have been all that was required to make it an "accessible" space. I remember Charlottesville put up handicap parking signs at a lot of spaces on streets with a 5% (or greater) grade.

The original (1961) version of A117.1 didn't specify a slope for accessible parking spaces (although it limited walks to a 5% grade), and just required a 12 ft. width.
 
steveray said:
306.3 Maintenance and repair. A facility that is constructed or altered to be accessible shall be maintained accessible during occupancy. Required accessible means of egress shall be maintained during construction, demolition, remodeling or alterations and additions to any occupied building.
Exception: Existing means of egress need not be maintained
where approved temporary means of egress and
accessible means of egress systems and facilities are
provided.
306.3.1 Prohibited reduction in accessibility. An alteration that decreases or has the effect of decreasing accessibility of a building, facility or element, thereof,
below the requirements for new construction at the time of the alteration is prohibited.
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What code book is this in?

Paul Sweet said:
If the parking space was marked before ADA, and the jurisdiction hadn't adopted ANSI A117.1, just putting up a sign might have been all that was required to make it an "accessible" space. I remember Charlottesville put up handicap parking signs at a lot of spaces on streets with a 5% (or greater) grade.

The original (1961) version of A117.1 didn't specify a slope for accessible parking spaces (although it limited walks to a 5% grade), and just required a 12 ft. width.
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No idea when someone stuck the sign in the ground. New owners don't know too.

Why does everyone here avoid the definition? If we can't agree on the definition in the code book it's hard to have any agreement at all.
IBC: ACCESSIBLE. A site, building, facility or portion
thereof that complies with Chapter 11.
ICC A117.1: ACCESSIBLE: Describes a site, building, facility or portion thereof that complies with this standard.

To me this means what it says. If it does not comply 100% to the code it is not accessible.

If alterations are done in an existing building but not on any doors and you are complying with the section that requires directional signs to an accessible exit at a non accessible exit would you send people to an exit that is not 100% accessible even if there are no exits that are 100% in the building at all?
 
Rick18071 said:
Don't know what this had to do with it. The parking space was not changed during, before or after the construction. It always was not compliant.
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Rick,

Not true, if you can't date the sign then if installed prior to the 1992 ADA being adopted, or for your local which might not have required A117.1 prior to 2004, then locally which you enforce it was compliant for the code that was in place at the time, if done before adoption of the local code. Pretty common in PA.

Just because the code changed, does not mean it was not compliant at some point if done prior. Hence without knowing when it was installed and being able to verify that date, you can only state that it does not meet the current minimum requirements, but as to being compliant for the intended use per the AHJ you can't walk into a parking lot and say well all these, 10 plus spots are not fully compliant, thus none exist.

Definition is very important for what is compliant at this date..... but the intent at some point was for it to be there for that reason, aka the sign exist.

Your current jurisdictional authority is not to determine if the parking spot is compliant, only that something is designated to be that type of spot, the sign gets you there. Your current jurisdictional authority is to make sure that there is a path from point "A" to Point "B". Not to make the call on the compliance of a "assigned" designated HD parking location in the lot, hence the sign only.

Splitting hairs is like reaching for a pot of boiling water, eventually it is going to come back and burn you, eventually.
 
If....at some point.....someone installed the sign.....the INTENT was for that spot to be or become accessible.....Every time you remodel, you become more accessible, which takes us back to the origin of this thread. Next remodel they will fix the grade or move the spot to a more compliant location....
 
steveray said:
If....at some point.....someone installed the sign.....the INTENT was for that spot to be or become accessible.....Every time you remodel, you become more accessible, which takes us back to the origin of this thread. Next remodel they will fix the grade or move the spot to a more compliant location....
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An accessible parking space would only need to be required if it was a change of occupancy or an addition unless the code is changed.

So the definitions are meaningless? Can't find "intent" in the code.

If it was intended for an exit to be accessible before there was codes I can't make them put up a directional sign to an exit that does comply when required in the IEBC?

Requiring the directional signs to accessible exits at non accessible exits was always the number 1 reason by far why I failed finals on existing buildings and usually more than once because they don't get the signs made right the second time (and the third time too). Sometimes it takes weeks to get these custom made signs. I would be happy if I would not need to enforce this because all the old exits were intended to be accessible when built before codes.
 
Accessible egress is generally not required to be upgraded in existing buildings....

306.7.2 Accessible means of egress. Accessible means of
egress required by Chapter 10 of the International Building
Code are not required to be added in existing
facilities.

Unless you just broadly use 306.7....

306.7 Alterations. A facility that is altered shall comply
with the applicable provisions in Chapter 11 of the International
Building Code, ICC A117.1 and the provisions of
Sections 306.7.1 through 306.7.16, unless technically infeasible.
Where compliance with this section is technically
infeasible, the alteration shall provide access to the maximum
extent technically feasible.
 
I don't know how requiring a directional sign would be technically infeasible but I am not allowed to say what is technically infeasible per PA code law.

What I should have said is Requiring the directional signs to accessible exits at non accessible exits was always the number 1 reason by far why I failed finals on existing buildings and new buildings.

I know existing buildings do not require accessible exits but still are required to have the directional sign to a accessible exit at non accessible exits when a c of o.
Follow the path of the code:

IEBC 305.4.2 Complete change of occupancy. Where an entire
building undergoes a change of occupancy, it shall comply
with Section 305.4.1 and shall have all of the following
accessible features:
1. Not fewer than one accessible building entrance.
2. Not fewer than one accessible route from an accessible
building entrance to primary function areas.
3. Signage complying with Section 1111 of the International
Building Code.
4. Accessible parking, where parking is being provided.
5. Not fewer than one accessible passenger loading
zone, where loading zones are provided.
6. Not fewer than one accessible route connecting
accessible parking and accessible passenger loading
zones to an accessible entrance.
Where it is technically infeasible to comply with the
new construction standards for any of these requirements
for a change of group or occupancy, Items 1 through 6
shall conform to the requirements to the maximum extent
technically feasible.
Exception: The accessible features listed in Items 1
through 6 are not required for an accessible route to
Type B units.

IBC 1111
1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided
at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
tion
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
6. Where drinking fountains for persons using wheelchairs
and drinking fountains for standing persons are
not located adjacent to each other, directional signage
shall be provided indicating the location of the other
drinking fountains.

IBC 1009.10 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the location of all other means of egress and which of those
are accessible means of egress shall be provided at the following:
1. At exits serving a required accessible space but not providing
an approved accessible means of egress.
2. At elevator landings.
3. Within areas of refuge.
 
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