Junction box accessibility

[e hilton]

Doing a minor refresh to a retail store, we uncovered a breaker panel behind a manufactured retail shelf unit. Back in 1994 they did a remodel and scope of work called out “remove 2 existing panels, replace with junction boxes, extend existing branch circuits to new panels”. This picture shows what we discovered, looks like the old upper panel was removed and a blank cover was installed. No idea if the lower panel is still live, there are 9 breakers all in the “on” position. no electrician available to check it until next week.

One upper manager says to have it checked and if it’s just a j-box or pull box, cover it back up. Does that meet code? Obviously if there are wire junctions it doesn’t. What if the conductors just pass through?

 

[jar546]

Doing a minor refresh to a retail store, we uncovered a breaker panel behind a manufactured retail shelf unit. Back in 1994 they did a remodel and scope of work called out “remove 2 existing panels, replace with junction boxes, extend existing branch circuits to new panels”. This picture shows what we discovered, looks like the old upper panel was removed and a blank cover was installed. No idea if the lower panel is still live, there are 9 breakers all in the “on” position. no electrician available to check it until next week.

One upper manager says to have it checked and if it’s just a j-box or pull box, cover it back up. Does that meet code? Obviously if there are wire junctions it doesn’t. What if the conductors just pass through?

All junction boxes must be accessible. They should not have been covered up. If there are connections, splices, etc, in there, it must be accessible. Actually, even if they are not, the box must be accessible. Do not cover it back up.

 

[e hilton]

All junction boxes must be accessible. They should not have been covered up. If there are connections, splices, etc, in there, it must be accessible. Actually, even if they are not, the box must be accessible. Do not cover it back up.

Thanks. There wasn’t any question in my mind what the requirement was if there are any connections, what you are saying is if conductors go through the box, it still needs to be accessible. Supposed to meet an electrician there monday morning to open it, going to be some unhappy managers if it’s not empty.

Can you cite a code section that covers this?

 

[jar546]

314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.

Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible in accordance with 314.29(A) and (B).

(A) In Buildings and Other Structures.
Boxes and conduit bodies shall be installed so the contained wiring can be accessed without removing any part of the building or structure.

 

[bill1952]

I don't know exactly what "manufactured retail shelf unit" is, but does a piece of furniture render the wiring inaccessible?

 

[jar546]

I don't know exactly what "manufactured retail shelf unit" is, but does a piece of furniture render the wiring inaccessible?

No, you have to read the definitions in the NEC of accessible and readily accessible. There is a difference.

 

[e hilton]

Here is a picture of what was there for a couple of years, until this week. You can see the upper cabinet, the blank plate, just to the right of the alarm keypad and domed camera. The panel that still has the breakers is below that, covered by the brown panel that the phone and fire extinguisher are hung on. In order to access the panel, you would have to remove the brown end panel, the first 3 feet of cigarettes, the first 3 ft of shelves, and the grey end panel, but the breaker panel is completely hidden.

It could be possible to omit the brown panel and the grey end panel, which only keeps the cigarettes from falling off the end of the shelves. You could also cut clearance in the grey panel to (sort of) make the breaker panel visible.

 

[ICE]

314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible. Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or structure or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade. Exception: Listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible for excavation.

A panel with breakers requires working space. That’s a clear space 36” deep, 30”wide, 6’ from the standing surface or the height of the equipment whichever is greater.

 

[e hilton]

Met an electrician at the store this morning, he removed both covers. Oops. Apparently nobody checked behind the contractor in 1994 when they were paid to clear out the unused wiring. Sparky found one hot wire that comes down from above, passes through the upper rats nest, through the lower breaker panel, and disappears out the bottom. Sparkyvsaid he can trace that wire, kill the power going through it, and then we can close it up and sheetrock over it. Having done my homework, i said 314.29 forbids that. He looked like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and said i might be right. Management is having a cow trying to figure out how to solve this without spending money.

.

 

[ICE]

It appears as though there are conductors with open air splices.

 

[Scipio]

If I understand correctly, when the electrician de-energizes the one conductor that you say is live, then there will be no live conductors in the boxes at all.

If that is true, then it is just a bunch of copper and plastic spaghetti and can be covered up, never to be accessed again.

So the Sparky would be correct, and it is another win for E-men.

Andy.

 

[jar546]

If I understand correctly, when the electrician de-energizes the one conductor that you say is live, then there will be no live conductors in the boxes at all.

If that is true, then it is just a bunch of copper and plastic spaghetti and can be covered up, never to be accessed again.

So the Sparky would be correct, and it is another win for E-men.

Andy.

No, that is incorrect. The code does not differentiate between live and dead wires. If the junction box still has wires in it, even if the wires are disconnected and have no voltage, the box must remain accessible. The only time you can cover it up is if the wiring is removed entirely.

 

[Scipio]

I have looked all over the NEC for a reference to this, but can't find anything.
I find stuff for cables in a cellular floor and such, but nothing for "regular" wiring.
Do you have a reference for it?

Andy.

 

[jar546]

I have looked all over the NEC for a reference to this, but can't find anything.
I find stuff for cables in a cellular floor and such, but nothing for "regular" wiring.
Do you have a reference for it?

Andy.

314.29 was already cited here 3 times. What specifically are you looking for?

 

[Scipio]

Specifically, I was looking for something that stated that dead or abandoned wiring was to be made accessible.

Andy.

 

[jar546]

Specifically, I was looking for something that stated that dead or abandoned wiring was to be made accessible.

Andy.

Because it is about the box, not the wires. Did you read the code section?

 

[Scipio]

Yes, I read it. Perhaps my interpretation is different from yours.
I guess this means that if I were to install an outlet in a wall that had no conductors or cabling entering or exiting it, just the box for my own edification, I would have to make it accessible solely because it is an electrical box?

Andy.

P.S., I have to say that I thought your last question was rather snide and not needed.

Because it is about the box, not the wires. Did you read the code section?

 

[e hilton]

P.S., I have to say that I thought your last question was rather snide and not needed.

You remind me of myself, in many situations. I have a pebble of a preconceived answer in my grey matter, and i can’t let go of it enough to understand the facts. Your last comment about making an empty receptacle box accessible is incorrect, and you keep hanging on to your own interpretation. You’re rejecting the facts (code) that has been presented several times.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Met an electrician at the store this morning, he removed both covers. Oops. Apparently nobody checked behind the contractor in 1994 when they were paid to clear out the unused wiring. Sparky found one hot wire that comes down from above, passes through the upper rats nest, through the lower breaker panel, and disappears out the bottom. Sparkyvsaid he can trace that wire, kill the power going through it, and then we can close it up and sheetrock over it. Having done my homework, i said 314.29 forbids that. He looked like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and said i might be right. Management is having a cow trying to figure out how to solve this without spending money.

.
View attachment 16378

Now, I am only a building official. I don't enforce sparky-sparky.
However, I'm hoping to all heck that (when funcational) this was not even remotely to Code. Please tell me that this never would and never could, meet Code?
Please?

 

[jar546]

P.S., I have to say that I thought your last question was rather snide and not needed.

This was my comment:

Because it is about the box, not the wires. Did you read the code section?

It makes a statement, then asks a question. The code was referenced several times, but we don't know if you read it. If making a helpful statement, then you think my asking a question is snarky, I can't help your perception, because that is your reality, regardless of the intent. This was a normal conversation in my eyes, which matched my intent.

 

[wwhitney]

No, that is incorrect. The code does not differentiate between live and dead wires.

I hope we can agree that a Chapter 3 wiring method may be abandoned by disconnecting it at both ends and left in place. There is no Chapter 3 equivalent to the requirement in 725.25 on abandoned Class 2, Class 3, and PLTC cables.

In which case if all the wiring in the cabinet is abandoned but spliced together within the cabinet, you could certainly remove the splices, remove the cabinet, and cover it all up. I don't see what additional hazard would be created by leaving the cabinet and splices and covering it all up, but since we don't have a definition of "junction box," arguably it would still be a junction box and would still need to comply with 314.29.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ICE]

I don't see what additional hazard would be created by leaving the cabinet and splices and covering it all up

Asked and answered....

it would still be a junction box and would still need to comply with 314.29.

I have encountered abandoned wiring in attics, crawl spaces, on top of mezzanines and any other place that wiring and conduit can be left in place. It is usually a mess. When I mention it, the contractors always say that it is abandoned and removing it is not in their contract. I make it clear that they don't have to do anything however, the owner will have to either remove all of the abandoned electrical or make all of the electrical compliant starting with Article 110.12.

The obvious reason is that as an inspector, I can't differentiate between the in use and the abandoned. Beyond that is the tendency to reuse an already run circuit in the future.

As to the box: The box becomes a junction box if there is a splice. If cable enters and exits with no splices it is a pull box. There is the potential to be both at the same time. An empty box is not a J-box nor is it a pull box. Article 314 governs junction and pull boxes. Empty boxes are not mentioned.

314 also governs conduit bodies.




The following pictures have active and abandoned wiring in an equal measure of a mess.

 

[jc_ks]

I hope we can agree that a Chapter 3 wiring method may be abandoned by disconnecting it at both ends and left in place. There is no Chapter 3 equivalent to the requirement in 725.25 on abandoned Class 2, Class 3, and PLTC cables.

In which case if all the wiring in the cabinet is abandoned but spliced together within the cabinet, you could certainly remove the splices, remove the cabinet, and cover it all up. I don't see what additional hazard would be created by leaving the cabinet and splices and covering it all up, but since we don't have a definition of "junction box," arguably it would still be a junction box and would still need to comply with 314.29.

Cheers, Wayne

The hazard would be when someone finds the other ends of those wires and puts power to them.

 

[wwhitney]

The hazard would be when someone finds the other ends of those wires and puts power to them.

But that hazard applies to any abandoned wiring (doing what you describe is unwise without tracing out the wires entirely). I don't see how having the hidden abandoned wiring only junction box increases that hazard.

Cheers, Wayne