Ten foot rods.
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Just the Concrete Encased Electrode
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
steveray
SAWHORSE
Only the last example was Canadian. Note that the end of the rod was apparently never struck with a solid object. Makes me wonder if they have 10" ground rods for the frozen north.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
When I go out for a service inspection, especially for an emergency reconnect after a storm, and I see two ground rods I'm good. The owner just wants to get their heat going before the freezing night or their freezer working before their food defrosts or a commercial business needs to send their employee's home. I will not make them find some record that probably does not exist that a CEE was installed before or dig down 4' along the side of the building to see if there is a wire going into the footing that might be attached to the footing rebar.
Would any of you do soothing different?
steveray
SAWHORSE
I'd probably take the extra minute and look for the water pipe, but if you are in well/ plastic pipe country maybe that is not a thing for you....
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
I do look for a metal pipe that is in an old house where i know they have city water. But I would not spend a lot of time in a cluttered basement or low crawl space to look for it.
steveray
SAWHORSE
Not to try to be harsh but.... Maybe that is why people are leery of third party/ for profit inspections.....
tmurray
SAWHORSE
I was thinking the same thing. As a former manager of a municipal building department, I did a lot to make sure my residents had excellent service from us. This included being able to look up records dating back into the 70's on our devices in the field.
Were the records always good? No, but we were getting better all the time. We had incentive to do better.
3rd party inspectors don't have that incentive, so why would they?
Oh I could tell you stories. I had a contractor call and ask me if I was aware that there was an imposter going around telling people that he was an inspector. When I assured him that the person was in fact a 3rd party guy hired by the county, he asked me to follow behind him on inspections.
The guy in question was addicted to methamphetamine. He ultimately disappeared with the County copy of all the permits for a huge commercial property and a dozen smaller projects that he had on his last day. Nobody knows what happened to him. He worked for the County for about a year.... he was a train wreck the entire time.
That was one of many.
jar546
CBO
When I owned and ran my own third-party inspection agency in PA, we cared, we did a great job and held everyone to the same standard. That is why it was difficult to keep contracts because it was a race to the bottom that I was unwilling to participate in. I had some really good municipalities that understood the importance, ...but the rest were clueless and just wanted favors for friends. It is difficult to compete against a third-party inspection agency that has a culture of doing as little as possible, to create as little of a wake in the pool as possible with guys that are good at taking tests but don't have the testicular fortitude to do their job and actually enforce the codes. Their incentive is to get a percentage of the permit fees while doing as little as possible, and kissing as much a%$ as possible by letting things go that upset the elected officials while being chalk full of excuses as to why they weren't or did not have to actually do their job.
It's why I am no longer there..................................................................or am I?
Jeff, you're fired!
That happened to me too. When I retired I went to work for a 3rd party outfit. Probably the largest in the nation. My position was part time in that I filled in for missing inspectors or went in to help with backlogs, What a mess.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
For a reconnect of a service I have refused to look for a metal pipe sticking out of the floor in a stinking old basement crammed with furniture, junk, broken glass, cat and dog feces to look for a metal pipe that may or may not continue 10' into the ground where they had 2 complying ground rods outside. The same for a 18" high crawl space with a mud floor. I don't know why being in a 3rd party inspection company has anything to do with this.
Maybe someone could tell me why very old lead pipe that may go in the ground 10' is safer than a new 8' ground rod. I thought lead was unconducive anyway. Yes, we do have a lot of old lead pipes around in older houses, some are disconnected and some are still used.
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steveray
SAWHORSE
It's not that it is safer, it is IF it is there, it is required to be part of the grounding electrode system...I do agree, that a CEE may be hard to find, but the water main generally isn't.....
Thread drift.
I have never been in a crawl space and if there was a question about any of it, you can tell the contractor to do the dirty work.
steveray
SAWHORSE
I may have erroneously latched on to this:
Or not....If you don't have the time to verify proper grounding on an electrical service inspection I guess I get that..It's not like they are current carrying conductors or anything important...
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
Code did not specify it had to be a water main. I thought it could be any metal pipe. I have seen more than one metal pipe sticking out of the ground in old house basements. Sometimes they still go upstairs and sometimes there might also be a newer plastic pipe there also. One time under a small cabin that was getting a service there were about a dozen copper sticking out of the ground. When I asked the owner about it, he said "dam pipes keep bursting in the winter".
steveray
SAWHORSE
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.
Correct...it does not have to be a water pipe, but when it is there it is an electrode that is required to be bonded...
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.
Correct...it does not have to be a water pipe, but when it is there it is an electrode that is required to be bonded...
jar546
CBO
When I go back and read my OP, and then read where we are now, I think that this thread has drifted, but in all actuality, it is still all about the Concrete Encased Electrode, CEE. Although the thread has drifted to more about responsibility and inspection integrity, the reality is that we are still discussing the CEE.
As a reminder, for new construction or an addition, moving the service, if you have a CEE, you don't need ground rods at all. Unless of course, the approved plans show them.
As a reminder, for new construction or an addition, moving the service, if you have a CEE, you don't need ground rods at all. Unless of course, the approved plans show them.
Yankee Chronicler
REGISTERED
But ... if the ground rods are there (in addition to the CEE), they must be bonded.
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jar546
CBO
Of course
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
For this cabin I did not make them bond all these broken pipes together, I think it would be stupid. They were in bad shape and only stuck out of the dirt a few inches under the open area under the cabin. A newer pipe that was being actually used for water was plastic. The others may not even continue for 10' in the ground according to the owner. I approved the two ground rods and had them break these old pipes at ground level. Would any of you make them connect all these broken pipes together?
A metal gas pipe cannot be used as the grounding electrode per 250.52(B)(1), but nothing prevents you from bonding it on the customer side of the meter - that is explicitly permitted by 250.104(B) (despite what a neighboring municipality tells people...) There is nothing in the NEC requiring a gas line to be bonded with a dedicated conductor at all because if it is likely to be energized, it is already bonded by the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit likely to energize it.
The IFGC only requires bonding of CSST that is not arc-resistant with a #6 wire not over 75', all other gas lines to be bonded in accordance with the NEC.