Life Safety question-Miami FL

[Aragorn]

First, hello everybody. I have been reading here for a while and find this sort of Forum very interesting and helpful.

We have designed a Hotel here in Miami and have recently received comments from the Fire Department.

The building is a 6 story structure - fully sprinklered.

One of the comments is regarding Elevator Lobby doors to enclose the Elevator lobbies on every floor.

As per the Florida Building Code this is not required as per 708.14.1 Exception #4

NFPA does not require it either unless the Elevators are being proposed as an additional means of egress (which they are not)

I pointed this out to the reviewer and he says he is requesting the doors to avoid the smoke going up through the elevator shaft and going out through the hoistway doors and entering the corridors.

Isn't the purpose of the Elevator Lobby doors to keep the smoke from entering the lobby and NOT from escaping to the corridor?

The other comment has to do with NFPA 1

The comment is "Comply with 'In building public safety radio enhancement system'" and he goes on to ask for a 10' x 10' room on the roof with AC and Emergency lighting.

He later cited NFPA 1-11.10 which says nothing about a room and only talks about maintaining a certain level of signal strength.

I think the 10' x 10 room requirement is a little over the top. Has anyone heard of this or had to comply with something like this before in such a small building?

Is there a common solution to resolve the enhancement of radio signals inside a building?

I hope I have been clear enough in my explanation.

I thank you all in advance for your help.

Gonzalo

 

[ADAguy]

Sounds like time for a meeting with the AHJ to discuss these issues.

As to smoke originating in elevator shaft?

Is the review by FD separate from your bld'd dept?

 

[mtlogcabin]

713.14.1 Elevator lobby.

An enclosed elevator lobby shall be provided at each floor where an elevator shaft enclosure connects more than three stories. The lobby enclosure shall separate the elevator shaft enclosure doors from each floor by fire partitions. In addition to the requirements in Section 708 for fire partitions, doors protecting openings in the elevator lobby enclosure walls shall also comply with Section 716.5.3 as required for corridor walls and penetrations of the elevator lobby enclosure by ducts and air transfer openings shall be protected as required for corridors in accordance with Section 717.5.4.1. Elevator lobbies shall have at least one means of egress complying with Chapter 10 and other provisions within this code.

Exceptions:

1. Enclosed elevator lobbies are not required at the level(s) of exit discharge, provided the level(s) of exit discharge is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.

2. Elevators not required to be located in a shaft in accordance with Section 712.1 are not required to have enclosed elevator lobbies.

3. Enclosed elevator lobbies are not required where additional doors are provided at the hoistway opening in accordance with Section 3002.6. Such doors shall comply with the smoke and draft control door assembly requirements in Section 716.5.3.1 when tested in accordance with UL 1784 without an artificial bottom seal.

4. Enclosed elevator lobbies are not required where the building is protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2. This exception shall not apply to the following:

4.1. Group I-2 occupancies;

4.2. Group I-3 occupancies; and

4.3. Elevators serving floor levels over 75 feet (22 860 mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access in high-rise buildings.

5. Smoke partitions shall be permitted in lieu of fire partitions to separate the elevator lobby at each floor where the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2. In addition to the requirements in Section 710 for smoke partitions, doors protecting openings in the smoke partitions shall also comply with Sections 710.5.2.2, 710.5.2.3, and 716.5.9 and duct penetrations of the smoke partitions shall be protected as required for corridors in accordance with Section 717.5.4.1.

6. Enclosed elevator lobbies are not required where the elevator hoistway is pressurized in accordance with Section 909.21.

7. Enclosed elevator lobbies are not required where the elevator serves only open parking garages in accordance with Section 406.5.

I am brain dead right now but there is a drop down curtain that can be installed in front of the elevator doors to accomplish this. It is activated by smoke detection

 

[cda]

what is the adopted building code for this project

What is the adopted fire code for this project

Any local admendments???

Is this considered a high rise?

 

[cda]

http://floridabuilding2.iccsafe.org/app/book/toc/2014/Florida/Building%20Code/index.html

 

[Aragorn]

ADAguy, I am trying to set that up for Monday.

mtlogcabin, I am actually citing/invoking exception #4. The building is fully sprinklered and is not a high rise. If I were to install the drop down curtains I might as well install the Lobby doors he wants.

cda, the building code is the Florida Building Code 4th ed. (2010). Fire Code is NFPA 101 and Florida Fire Prevention Code. Neither require the Elev. Lobby doors.

This is more an issue of them getting their way and making me do what they want.

On previous hotels we had to put them on some and we were able to not put them on others...depending on the reviewer.

Thanks for all the responses. Any insight on the other issue?

Regards

G

 

[cda]

http://www.myfloridacfo.com/division/sfm/BFP/LocalAmendments.htm

 

[cda]

ADAguy, I am trying to set that up for Money day.mtlogcabin, I am actually citing/invoking exception #4. The building is fully sprinklered and is not a high rise. If I were to install the drop down curtains I might as well install the Lobby doors he wants.

cda, the building code is the Florida Building Code 4th ed. (2010). Fire Code is NFPA 101 and Florida Fire Prevention Code. Neither require the Elev. Lobby doors.

This is more an issue of them getting their way and making me do what they want.

On previous hotels we had to put them on some and we were able to not put them on others...depending on the reviewer.

Thanks for all the responses. Any insight on the other issue?

Regards

G

Did you check for local admendment for the radio?

Seems like something that would not be made up

 

[cda]

ADAguy, I am trying to set that up for Monday.mtlogcabin, I am actually citing/invoking exception #4. The building is fully sprinklered and is not a high rise. If I were to install the drop down curtains I might as well install the Lobby doors he wants.

cda, the building code is the Florida Building Code 4th ed. (2010). Fire Code is NFPA 101 and Florida Fire Prevention Code. Neither require the Elev. Lobby doors.

This is more an issue of them getting their way and making me do what they want.

On previous hotels we had to put them on some and we were able to not put them on others...depending on the reviewer.

Thanks for all the responses. Any insight on the other issue?

Regards

G

This code???

http://floridabuilding2.iccsafe.org/app/book/toc/2014/Florida/Building%20Code/index.html

Don't think it matters

Sure they do not consider it a high rise?

 

[Aragorn]

This code???http://floridabuilding2.iccsafe.org/app/book/toc/2014/Florida/Building%20Code/index.html

Don't think it matters

Sure they do not consider it a high rise?

Yes, the previous version because that one came into play on July 1st, but it's essentially the same.

I am absolutely sure they don't consider it a high rise. Roof slab is at +70 feet.

Thanks for the ammendments link. There are none for Miami Dade though.

I can understand some sort of radio enhancement system, I just don't get the 10 x 10 room requirement.

Thanks again

 

[cda]

Ok sounds like you have done your homework.

So my question to the reviewer would be please give me the sections of the code you are requiring these to items from.

So I can review them.

If not producable, than the requirements go away or revised

 

[cda]

11.10* Two-Way Radio Communication Enhancement Systems.

does not say much.

I have never done a systems, so I do not know how much equipement is involved.

 

[cda]

""Is there a common solution to resolve the enhancement of radio signals inside a building?"""

11.10.1 In all new and existing buildings, minimum radio signal strength for fire department communications shall be maintained at a level determined by the AHJ.

Build the building, let them or you test. if signal problem, than add equipment.

Like i said, never done one of these systems, and have wondered how you know before a building was built if there would be a problem.

I know some of the buildings in town have problem getting radio signals out, but sometimes it is hit and miss??????

 

[Aragorn]

""Is there a common solution to resolve the enhancement of radio signals inside a building?"""11.10.1 In all new and existing buildings, minimum radio signal strength for fire department communications shall be maintained at a level determined by the AHJ.

Build the building, let them or you test. if signal problem, than add equipment.

Like i said, never done one of these systems, and have wondered how you know before a building was built if there would be a problem.

I know some of the buildings in town have problem getting radio signals out, but sometimes it is hit and miss??????

That was my proposal to another reviewer I had the chance to talk to. IF when it is built, the signal strength is not sufficient we will deal with it. We were going to add a note to that effect in the plans.

Then he talked to the Cpt. who reviewed the plans and he said no, that now they are enforcing the construction of the room. When I asked for a code reference I was informed this is not a Code requirement, "it's a Captain judgement (sic)" Same answer for the lobby doors...Cpt judgement...

Today I called to set up an appointment with the Cpt. and I have to go through a LT. first because the Cpt. doesn't do review meetings unless you go through the Lt. first...kind of ridiculous...

 

[cda]

Fun

Sounds like you need to go over the capt head.

We do have policy statements which we enforce. But, they are in writing.

The capt cannot enforce it if it has not been adopted.

Has the building official said anything about the elevator doors?

That might be a route to go also, to see if the Bo can get the capt to see the light

Guess last resort is board of appeals

 

[Aragorn]

Thanks CDA, we will try to resolve this with the Cpt. first and then escalate if we need to.

The Building reviewer hasn't given us any comment regarding the Elevator Lobby doors.

 

[Aragorn]

Met with the reviewer and he is saying that even though an enclosed elevator lobby is not required by Code unless I can demonstrate that the Elevator doors are smoke doors to avoid smoke migrating up through the hoistway (which is a shaft and requires openings to be protected) I have to enclose the lobby. Anyone know of any exceptions for Elevator doors in an elevators shaft?

On the other requirement it's just basically a scare tactic. They can't enforce it, but if the signal strength doesn't meet their requirements once the building is finished we have to fix it to acceptable levels.

They talked about a bidirectional amplifier. By the little research I was able to do these do not require an air conditioned 10' x 10' room...They are small units that go in small closets.

 

[cda]

"""""Met with the reviewer and he is saying that even though an enclosed elevator lobby is not required by Code unless I can demonstrate that the Elevator doors are smoke doors to avoid smoke migrating up through the hoistway (which is a shaft and requires openings to be protected) I have to enclose the lobby. Anyone know of any exceptions for Elevator doors in an elevators shaft?""""

And what code section are they requiring this from???

Cannot give an answer without a code section

As I would say to the captain

Also, why isn't the building official saying anything!!! It is more his code than fire.

Check the door specs against this::::

3. A shaft door meeting both the smoke and draft protection requirements for corridor doors in Section 715.4.3.1 as well as the appropriate fire-protection rating of Table 715.4 for the shaft.

While many elevator hoistway shaft doors are tested and labeled for the 1-hour or 11/2-hour fire resistance rating (Section 715.4), very few, if any, of the doors typically sold in the U.S. will also meet the smoke and draft requirements (Section 715.4.3.1) that would allow them to open directly into a fire-resistance-rated corridor. Because of this, Items 1 and 2 above will be the general methods for protecting such openings.

 

[Aragorn]

Already checked the door. It's 90 min fire rated but not smoke rated.

As to the Code section...

When I cited the Building Code he said he didn't care about the Building code, he goes by NFPA.

When I cited NFPA saying that elevator lobbies are not required he basically cited the shaft opening protection for fire AND smoke...an elevator door is an opening in a shaft and it needs to be Fire AND smoke protected.

From what I have read online the Building Code exception is there for a fully sprinklered building because the water entering the shaft from the hoistway sprinkler heads displaces the smoke outwards.

But how do you make these kind of people understand that without a Code reference? I cannot believe NFPA in its dozens of volumes does not address this.