Limiting access to public toilet rooms

[Dr. J]

So, GB, you would require a private (therfore subject to local building code) defense contractor with a perimeter security fence to buzz through anyone just so they can use the toilet?

 

[gbhammer]

So, GB, you would require a private (therfore subject to local building code) defense contractor with a perimeter security fence to buzz through anyone just so they can use the toilet?

Silly hypothetical.

The code as read in the literal sense says - 'IPC 403.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and Visitors shall be provided public toilet facilities...'

So a private facility would most likely not just buzz someone in. If they did allow visitors and then did not let them use the restroom well the mess would be on them. Again literally.

 

[TJacobs]

Not a restaurant. Not a private office. Not single-user toilet rooms.

>30,000 square foot mercantile, 3 exits required, long travel distance between toilet rooms and cash wrap...NO DOUBT public toilet rooms are required. Not concerned about the homeless or vagabonds (for this scenario).

Focus...

 

[imhotep]

Focus? OK What code governs this decision? Local or state amendments? I can see nothing in the IBC or IPC that would allow an AHJ to proscribe unfettered access to a restroom. Egress from a restroom yes, access no.

 

[mark handler]

Focus? OK What code governs this decision? Local or state amendments? I can see nothing in the IBC or IPC that would allow an AHJ to proscribe unfettered access to a restroom. Egress from a restroom yes, access no.

International Plumbing Code

403.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.

 

[imhotep]

International Plumbing Code403.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.

I got that. Where is the provision that requires free access?

 

[mark handler]

Perhaps we stop looking at dancing girls and Lets try to read the code

2006 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.4.3 Pay facilities. Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

2009 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.3.4 Pay facilities. Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

2012 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE®

2902.3.4 Pay facilities.

Where pay facilities are installed, such facilities shall be in excess of the required minimum facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge.

The states of New York, New Jersey, Minnesota, California, Florida and Ohio have other laws/statues that ban pay toilets

 

[mark handler]

State of Washington I assume that is where you are "Pacific Northwest"

WAC 51-50-2900

2903.4 Pay facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge. Where pay facilities are installed, they shall be in addition to the minimum required facilities.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=51-50-2900

State of Oregon

http://ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/free_resources/Oregon/10_Structural/10_PDFs/Chapter%2029_Plumbing%20Systems.pdf

2903.4 Pay facilities. Required facilities shall be free of charge. Where pay facilities are installed, they shall be in addition to the minimum required facilities.

 

[steveray]

I knew you would find a pic!

 

[imhotep]

Ad hominem attack? Disappointing.

You've cited accessibility concerns and pay toilet rules, but have failed to address the question.

Where public toilet facilities are required, does anyone out there allow the door to the toilet room to be equipped with a locking device on the outside, preventing access to the room based on security (shoplifting) concerns? If not, code section(s) please.

My answer: I can't find a code section that prohibits equipping a toilet room with a locking device to control access.

 

[Codegeek]

There is language in the 2012 IPC about not allowing a locking mechanism on the inside of the toilet room, but nothing about a lock on the outside of the toilet room.

 

[Mac]

The Building & Plumbing codes require the facilities & fixtures. The Property Maintenance code requires them to be maintained.

I don't see anything that requires the owner/operator to allow free access to them. Did I miss it?

 

[imhotep]

Yes, Washington State is where I are. How is WAC 51-50-2900 applicable to the door leading into the toilet room?

 

[gbhammer]

The Building & Plumbing codes require the facilities & fixtures. The Property Maintenance code requires them to be maintained. I don't see anything that requires the owner/operator to allow free access to them. Did I miss it?

2009 IPC - PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.

unrestricted [ˌʌnrɪˈstrɪktɪd]

adj

not restricted or limited in any way unrestricted access

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[gbhammer]

The code in it definition uses the word unrestricted. The forum has had this argument of definitions before. The definition of unrestricted is simple - Do not limit in anyway. simple

 

[gbhammer]

Health safety is just as important as life safety.

In an egress situation with a locked door a constantly attended station is required, because people could die quickly if not allowed to exit.

In health safety some one is not going to die quickly, however there can be long term consequences to the type of accident that might occur when a person is in desperate need of a toilet and then tries to find a key in a 30,000 square foot mercantile.

 

[imhotep]

Health safety is just as important as life safety. In an egress situation with a locked door a constantly attended station is required, because people could die quickly if not allowed to exit.

In health safety some one is not going to die quickly, however there can be long term consequences to the type of accident that might occur when a person is in desperate need of a toilet and then tries to find a key in a 30,000 square foot mercantile.

I understand the point, but can't help observe that you don't reference a code section that deals with the question. I can't find one.

 

[gbhammer]

I understand the point, but can't help observe that you don't reference a code section that deals with the question. I can't find one.

this is the code section

OK here we go

Point #1 - Where in the code- 2009 IPC section 202 General Definitions - PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, “public” applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.

The code does not define every word they can't. Unrestricted is not defined by the ICC it is to common a word to define. They believe that most people will know what Unrestricted means.

unrestricted [ˌʌnrɪˈstrɪktɪd]

adj

not restricted or limited in any way unrestricted access

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[gbhammer]

If you put a lock on the door and make someone wait for the key or even worse you make them travel further to find the person with the key, well you have just resticted access.

 

[imhotep]

I take the point. So can a shopkeeper have an attendant who requires patrons to place merchandise in a storage cubicle prior to 'buzzing' them into a toilet room?

 

[gbhammer]

I asked a similar question in the #8 post on this thread.

During the course of the thread I have come to the conclusion that if they are allowed to lock the door in the first place then the AHJ will have trouble enforcing a requirement for a constant attendant.

If there is going to be an attendant then why lock the doors at all, someone can watch people enter and leave the restrooms. Shoplifting problem solved.

 

[imhotep]

I asked a similar question in the #8 post on this thread.During the course of the thread I have come to the conclusion that if they are allowed to lock the door in the first place then the AHJ will have trouble enforcing a requirement for a constant attendant.

If there is going to be an attendant then why lock the doors at all, someone can watch people enter and leave the restrooms. Shoplifting problem solved.

So what answers the OP question? It appears a judicious application of the common language definition of 'unrestricted' is the final answer. If the permit applicant wants to provide false statements in order to construct a setup with restricted access to public plumbing facilities then that is on them.

On the event horizon:

What about transgender restroom facilities? Or family friendly accommodations? (Mom needs to change a sons diapers). Travel distance to toilets? Hmmmm.....

 

[north star]

* * * *

"I take the point. So can a shopkeeper have an attendant who requires patrons to place merchandisein a storage cubicle prior to 'buzzing' them into a toilet room?"

What I have observed [ typically, not completely in every situation ], is that some stores/ businessess will not address directly the issue of stock shrinkage [ aka - shoplifting ],

rather, they will simply pass the costs on to others.....Insurance companies do this

regularly, ...hospitals do this all the time.....It seems to be a part of the business model.

Rather than have an attendant at the restrooms, to monitor patrons and their

accompanying merchandise, ...costs are simply shifted to the purchase price of other

products.

IMO, I still say "unrestricted access" to a restroom is a requirement, per Section

403.4, `06 IPC.....If the structure / business itself is intended for public utilization,

then "vsitors" to that structure should be provided with "unrestricted access" to

the restrooms....The business owners have to know this going in to it [ IMO ] !

No reputable business owner will want to offend a customer / "lose business",

so to accomplish this, ...shoplifting is a part of the operating costs.......Using the

restaurant as an example, ...what if that "visitor" wants to go to the restroom

first to wash their hands [ and take of business ] before sitting down to order

something?.....I sincerely believe that no business is going to restrict their

access to the "loo", and interogate that "visitor" as to their intent......Does a

business owner have that right / choice?......I would say "yes, they have that

right / choice!".......The consequences of exercisiong that "right / choice"

may establish a non-customer friendly atmosphere though!

Good topic discussion ya'll! Keep it up [ and play nice ]

* * * *

 

[Mac]

Ouch! My bad!

The forum is truly a learning experience! Thanks!