1. Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by clicking here: Upgrades
    Dismiss Notice

Lockout on Breaker Questions

Discussion in 'Electrical Codes' started by tbz, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. tbz

    tbz Silver Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    26
    I will start with just noting that this is not my normal area on the forum, I am not in my comfort zone here, but need a little help.

    Nephew install manufactured kit Sauna in his basement.

    The electrician did not install a service disconnect, just direct wired the unit (30 twin breaker)

    Electrical panel is not in the same room as the basement, but just inside the other room.

    Inspector gave him the option to install a disconnect at the unit or a breaker lockout device at the breaker panel.

    My question is about the breaker lockout, is this just a simple equipment breaker lockout device one would use when servicing equipment in a facility? Or is it something different?

    Do you put the lock on while the unit is live and thus need a key to open the small padlock to reset, or do you just leave a small lockout kit next to the breaker panel to be used and mark the break with a note that there is no service disconnect at the sauna?

    He is a contractor not an electrician, but he carries a 12 pc breaker lockout kit with him on his truck for when he does demo work at clients homes. This way he can lock out any area from being turned back on while he is not there to prevent problems in the areas he works, and if this is all he needs, great, but I am trying to verify for him.

    Be gently, I work in the MOE area, not electrical...

    Thanks everyone for the help.
     
  2. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,951
    Likes Received:
    659
    Not my main wheelhouse either, but why is the sauna any different than a stove? Direct wired from breaker to device?

    Am I not understanding the question?
     
  3. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    7,649
    Likes Received:
    708
    You have to install a breaker lock that is capable of being locked in the open or/off position. That is what is necessary if you do not provide a disconnect such as the switch. It is the same exact thing for appliances that are hardwired. If the panel is not within sight.
     
  4. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    17,983
    Likes Received:
    1,253

    See if said inspector will accept this::: there are many versions of it::


    https://www.tclifesafety.com/space-age-elock-fa-fire-lockout-kit.html
     
    Pcinspector1 likes this.
  5. Pcinspector1

    Pcinspector1 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    3,271
    Likes Received:
    473
    I would accept it, IMO it meets the intent of the code to prevent the breaker from being turned off.

    However, what I dislike about a breaker lock-out is the breaker is pretty much useless, it can't trip.
     
  6. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,951
    Likes Received:
    659
    Didn't think about it being hardwired...duh......
     
  7. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    17,983
    Likes Received:
    1,253

    Ok

    Breakers trip no matter what you do to them

    Electrical overload

    Heat

    or

    Shock as in hitting them

    Tape, lockouts, whatever they internally trip
     
    Pcinspector1 likes this.
  8. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,436
    Likes Received:
    317
    The lock out is for when someone is working on it. I would not accept a potable lock-out kit.
     
  9. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    217
    I would not want a drinkable lockout either. :}

    Seriously ... i clicked on the link, it looks like that device is intended to prevent a breaker from being turned OFF. Just the opposite of what you need for the sauna in question. And if a breaker is locked off, it doesn’t need to trip.
     
  10. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    7,649
    Likes Received:
    708
    The breaker could trip regardless of whether or not the lock is on it.
     
  11. Pcinspector1

    Pcinspector1 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    3,271
    Likes Received:
    473
    I did not know that. The lock-it kit that cda posted looked like it locked the breaker from tripping.
     
  12. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    17,983
    Likes Received:
    1,253

    Take a loose breaker that is not tripped,,

    Smack hard with your hand and it will trip.

    Put it in a warm oven and it will trip
     
  13. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    7,649
    Likes Received:
    708
    They trip. No issues, they trip with breaker locks.
     
  14. cda

    cda Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    17,983
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    So you killed someone today.


    No, it was the gravity that killed him.
     
  15. Norcal

    Norcal Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    17
    Circuit breakers are required to be "trip free" and that has been required for many years, you cannot hold them closed against a fault, one of these days need to look in older codes to see when that was first introduced.

    BTW, I always defined a service disconnect as means to disconnect service entrance conductors, but effing HVAC service techs are big culprits of applying the "service disconnect" label included with safety switches to the disco.
     

Share This Page