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"Loophole" that I don't like

Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

jd; so in your mind if you had storage in this space it would be B, or A occupancy not S-1?? Seems strange to me. When i plan review, I classifiy each area of the space as to it use.

brudgers' you should try and read read the code prior to making these off-hand comments.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

Jeff - Digging in to the EBC, I have found a code path to follow... Let's just call it 'The Long and Winding Road'. I don't know if you will end up with sprinklers, but you should at least get some compartmentation out of it.

Starting with definitions, and moving through the chapters:

ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than a repair or addition. Alterations are classified as Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3.

CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY. A change In the purpose or level of activity within a building that involves a change in application of the requirements of this code.

PRIMARY FUNCTION. A primary function is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.

WORK AREA. That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces as indicated on the construction documents. Work area excludes other portions of the building where incidental work entailed by the intended work must be performed and portions of the building where work not initially intended by the owner is specifically required by this code.

SECTION 302 ADDITIONS, ALTERATIONS OR REPAIRS

302.1 Existing buildings or structures.

Additions or alterations to any building or structure shall comply with the requirements of the International Building Code for new construction. Additions or alterations shall not be made to an existing building or structure that will cause the existing building or structure to be in violation of any provisions of the International Building Code. An existing building plus additions shall comply with the height and area provisions of the International Building Code. Portions of the structure not altered and not affected by the alteration are not required to comply with the code requirements for a new structure.

302.3 Nonstructural.

Nonstructural alterations or repairs to an existing building or structure are permitted to be made of the same materials of which the building or structure is constructed, provided that they do not adversely affect any structural member or the fire-resistance rating of any part of the building or structure.

302.7 Fuel gas. [FG]

Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to fuel gas installations shall conform to the International Fuel Gas Code without requiring the existing installation to comply with all of the requirements of this code. Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing installation to become unsafe, hazardous or overloaded.

Minor additions, alterations, renovations and repairs to existing installations shall meet the provisions for new construction, unless such work is done in the same manner and arrangement as was in the existing system, is not hazardous and is approved.

404.1 Scope.

Level 2 alterations include the reconfiguration of space, the addition or elimination of any door or window, the reconfiguration or extension of any system, or the installation of any additional equipment.

SECTION 406 CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY

406.1 Scope.

Change of occupancy provisions apply where the activity is classified as a change of occupancy as defined in Chapter 2.

701.3 Compliance.

All new construction elements, components, systems, and spaces shall comply with the requirements of the International Building Code.

703.4 Interior finish.

The interior finish of walls and ceilings in exits and corridors in any work area shall comply with the requirements of the International Building Code.

Exception: Existing interior finish materials that do not comply with the interior finish requirements of the International Building Code shall be permitted to be treated with an approved fire-retardant coating in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions to achieve the required rating.

703.4.1 Supplemental interior finish requirements.

Where the work area on any floor exceeds 50 percent of the floor area, Section 703.4 shall also apply to the interior finish in exits and corridors serving the work area throughout the floor.

Exception: Interior finish within tenant spaces that are entirely outside the work area.

SECTION 704 FIRE PROTECTION

704.1 Scope.

The requirements of this section shall be limited to work areas in which Level 2 alterations are being performed, and where specified they shall apply throughout the floor on which the work areas are located or otherwise beyond the work area.

704.2 Automatic sprinkler systems.

Automatic sprinkler systems shall be provided in accordance with the requirements of Sections 704.2.1 through 704.2.5. Installation requirements shall be in accordance with the International Building Code.

704.2.2.1 Mixed uses.

In work areas containing mixed uses, one or more of which requires automatic sprinkler protection in accordance with Section 704.2.2, such protection shall not be required throughout the work area provided that the uses requiring such protection are separated from those not requiring protection by fire-resistance-rated construction having a minimum 2-hour rating for Group H and a minimum 1-hour rating for all other occupancy groups.

SECTION 707 STRUCTURAL

707.1 General.

Where alteration work includes installation of additional equipment that is structurally supported by the building or reconfiguration of space such that portions of the building become subjected to higher gravity loads as required by Tables 1607.1 and 1607.6 of the International Building Code, the provisions of this section shall apply.

707.2 Reduction of strength.

Alterations shall not reduce the structural strength or stability of the building, structure, or any individual member thereof.

Exception: Such reduction shall be allowed as long as the strength and the stability of the building are not reduced to below the International Building Code levels.

707.4 Existing structural members.

Existing structural components supporting additional equipment or subjected to additional loads based on International Building Code Tables 1607.1 and 1607.6 as a result of a reconfiguration of spaces shall comply with Sections 707.4.1 through 707.4.3.

707.4.1 Gravity loads.

Existing structural elements supporting any additional gravity loads as a result of additional equipment or space reconfiguration shall comply with the International Building Code.

Exceptions:

1. Structural elements whose stress is not increased by more than 5 percent.

SECTION 601 GENERAL (Chapter 7 requires Chapter 6 compliance as well...)

601.1 Scope.

Level 1 alterations as described in Section 403 shall comply with the requirements of this chapter. Level 1 alterations to historic buildings shall comply with this chapter, except as modified in Chapter 11.

601.2 Conformance.

An existing building or portion thereof shall not be altered such that the building becomes less safe than its existing condition.

Exception: Where the current level of safety or sanitation is proposed to be reduced, the portion altered shall conform to the requirements of the International Building Code.

SECTION 602 BUILDING ELEMENTS AND MATERIALS

602.1 Interior finishes.

All newly installed interior finishes shall comply with the flame spread requirements of the International Building Code.

602.3 Materials and methods.

All new work shall comply with materials and methods requirements in the ICC Electrical Code, International Building Code, International Energy Conservation Code, International Mechanical Code, and International Plumbing Code, as applicable, that specify material standards, detail of installation and connection, joints, penetrations, and continuity of any element, component, or system in the building.

602.3.1International Fuel Gas Code. [FG]

The following sections of the International Fuel Gas Code shall constitute the fuel gas materials and methods requirements for Level 1 alterations.

1. All of Chapter 3, entitled “General Regulations,” except Sections 303.7 and 306.

2. All of Chapter 4, entitled “Gas Piping Installations,” except Sections 401.8 and 402.3.

2.1. Sections 401.8 and 402.3 shall apply when the work being performed increases the load on the system such that the existing pipe does not meet the size required by code. Existing systems that are modified shall not require resizing as long as the load on the system is not increased and the system length is not increased even if the altered system does not meet code minimums.

3. All of Chapter 5, entitled “Chimneys and Vents.”

4. All of Chapter 6, entitled “Specific Appliances.”

SECTION 603 FIRE PROTECTION

603.1 General.

Alterations shall be done in a manner that maintains the level of fire protection provided.

Chapter 9 - Change of Occupancy

SECTION 901 GENERAL

901.1 Scope.

The provisions of this chapter shall apply where a change of occupancy occurs, as defined in Section 202, including:

1. Where the occupancy classification is not changed, or

2. Where there is a change in occupancy classification or the occupancy group designation changes.

901.2 Change in occupancy with no change of occupancy classification.

A change in occupancy, as defined in Section 202, with no change of occupancy classification shall not be made to any structure that will subject the structure to any special provisions of the applicable International Codes, including the provisions of Sections 902 through 911, without the approval of the code official. A certificate of occupancy shall be issued where it has been determined that the requirements for the change in occupancy have been met.

901.2.1 Repair and alteration with no change of occupancy classification.

Any repair or alteration work undertaken in connection with a change of occupancy that does not involve a change of occupancy classification shall conform to the applicable requirements for the work as classified in Chapter 4 and to the requirements of Sections 902 through 911.

Exception: As modified in Section 1105 for historic buildings.

Chapter 9 continues with some very good stuff, but this post was getting close to the limit... ;) Hope some of it helps.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

brudgers said:
NFPA 101 has classed restaurants with less the 50 occupants as Mercantile.Makes a lot of sense given the way in which real-estate is typically developed and marketed.

And is typically more restrictive than group B.
I normally don't agree with brudgers but in this case I do. Classifying a commercial kitchen of any size serving a restaurant seating area of less than 50 occupants as a B use is a perversion of the code. The seating area (or standing area) could be a B use, but not the kitchen. Classing the entire space of a small restaurant as an M seems more appropriate than a B. A commercial kitchen IS more hazardous than any B use, IMO.

I also agree with kilitact in principle that F-1 is more appropriate than B for a commercial kitchen.

In either case there should be separation between the commercial and residential in an nonsprinklered building regardless of age, IMO.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

kilitact said:
jd; so in your mind if you had storage in this space it would be B, or A occupancy not S-1?? Seems strange to me. When i plan review, I classifiy each area of the space as to it use.brudgers' you should try and read read the code prior to making these off-hand comments.
I have read the code.

Restaurants are explicitly listed within the A-2 use group.

The fact that restaurant uses commonly have kitchens is addressed elsewhere in the code.

A-2 uses generally require sprinklers when occupant loads exceed 100 rather than 300.

A-2 uses also require sprinklers when the fire area exceeds 5000 sf.

F-1 uses require sprinklers at 12,000 sf with no total occupant criteria.

Although, I'm sure you would require sprinklers at 2,500 square feet since not only F-1 but a woodworking operation.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

brudgers - That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, just as Kilitact is entitled to his.

His jurisdiction = his call.

Until someone challenges his interpretation and wins, as long as he is consistent in that interpretation, I could not call it 'incorrect' or 'wrong'. Persaonally I don't agree with it, but I don't live in his jurisdiction so it has no direct effect on me.

Kilitact - Every pizza place on the planet has storage... ever notice the boxes piled up on top of the oven? Or the store room in the back? Remember, I'm the one defending you here (I know strange ;) ), I just don't agree with your position. Don't forget we have provisions for 'accessory' and 'incidental' uses, as well as for 'non-seperated' versus 'seperated' uses. Not all is as simple as black and white, there are many shades of grey in the codes.

How did I end up fighting both sides of this? :eek:
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

Jake - While I don't disagree with you generally, the NFPA codes are only applicable to the extent referenced by the I-codes (you can't get there from here). Also, if you break down the fire safety requirements for 'B' and 'M' occupancies in the I-codes, they are almost indistinguishable from one another.

Just to emphasize the unseen risks of 'B' occupancies, there is an automobile dealership in upstate NY that (pre-code adoption) elected to provide a block wall between the repair/service garage and the offices. He didn't trust his mechanics enough not to burn the place down. When they had a fire (30 plus years later) it wasn't the sloppy mechanics, and it didn't start in the garage. The fire that started in the 'B' occupancy burned hot and hard due to the fire load in the offices (you know, all that paper and cardboard?). 'B' occupancies can be pretty darn hazardous.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

\ said:
I normally don't agree with brudgers but in this case I do. Classifying a commercial kitchen of any size serving a restaurant seating area of less than 50 occupants as a B use is a perversion of the code. The seating area (or standing area) could be a B use, but not the kitchen. Classing the entire space of a small restaurant as an M seems more appropriate than a B. A commercial kitchen IS more hazardous than any B use, IMO.

I also agree with kilitact in principle that F-1 is more appropriate than B for a commercial kitchen.

In either case there should be separation between the commercial and residential in an nonsprinklered building regardless of age, IMO.
Classifying Assembly Uses with an occupant load less than 50 as a Business occupancy comes at least in part from SBC '97 (where the limit was 100).

I believe you are confusing Use Group with Occupancy.

A restaurant is a use.

It is part of Use Group A-2.

Use Group A-2 normally requires that the Occupancy be classified as Assembly.

When the Occupant Load is less than 50, Use Group A-2 is classified as a Business occupancy, as are Use Group A-1, Use Group A-3, Use Group A-4,and Use Group A-5.

In my opinion, a restaurant classified as Occupancy B would still be limited by the A-2 requirements in chapter 9 and Table 500.

Under IBC, there is a change of Use not of Occupancy.

And of course I agree that in new construction an occupancy separation between the commercial uses and the residential uses would be required.

However, without a full code analysis I would not hazard a guess as to what is required in an existing building (regardless of what I would recommend).

As for perversions of the code, the entire IBC is one.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

John Drobysh said:
brudgers - That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, just as Kilitact is entitled to his. His jurisdiction = his call.

Until someone challenges his interpretation and wins, as long as he is consistent in that interpretation, I could not call it 'incorrect' or 'wrong'. Persaonally I don't agree with it, but I don't live in his jurisdiction so it has no direct effect on me.
Legally, he is protected so long as he consistently applies the wrong interpretation and does so unknowingly...knowlingly doing so is another matter.

However, when I encounter this sort of nonsense I use a simple approach.

I just request a meeting with the city attorney in writing.

"His jurisdiction = his call" lasts about five seconds when the call is clearly wrong.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

I can see all sides of this. Classifying a commercial kitchen as an F-1 would definately be a change of occupancy and would trigger the fire seperation from the R unit above, but as John pointed out if there has not been a consistant interpretation of all commercial kitchens being an F-1 you may not win if challanged.

Jar have them get a liscensed design proffessional prepare a report as outlined in section 3410 and base your decision/requirements on that report. You might be able to require additional exiting for the R units or early notification or any number of things in lieu of a seperation or sprinkler requirement. You won't be going at it alone you will have a 3rd party independent review to work from.

3410.1 Compliance.

The provisions of this section are intended to maintain or increase the current degree of public safety, health and general welfare in existing buildings while permitting repair, alteration, addition and change of occupancy without requiring full compliance with Chapters 2 through 33, or Sections 3401.3, and 3403 through 3407, except where compliance with other provisions of this code is specifically required in this section.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

I have thoroughly enjoyed both starting and reading this thread. A big thanks to every single person who has posted. I am enlightened.

Although long, I read your BIG post JD.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

Hey - I wuz just asking!

As the thread develops, I feel the "B" is the most appropriate occupancy. I don't think the "F1" is meant to include a customer waiting/seating area. Customers may even munch a slice, which really makes it a little pizza place.

That decision is code supported and completely defensible. Trust me - I have reasons for getting rated separations installed where ever possible:

http://blog.syracuse.com/news/2007/10/d ... s_fro.html

Hamilton FD did great work that night. The fire moved quickly through the ceiling and into the apartments above.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

I don't think the "F1" is meant to include a customer waiting/seating area.
I would agree, I was only calling the commercial kitchen F-1, which I thought you were referring to, waiting/seating area is B.
 
Re: "Loophole" that I don't like

I agree with brudgers (good god!), cooking isn't a higher hazard than residential.

Also, if your jurisdiction had any codes in place since about 1955, if there was a change of use since there likely would have been separation of 1 hour required between a business and a residence above. Just found my 1955 UBC book and that's pretty much what it says. Good luck.
 
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