Metal Fire Sprinkler Piping

[Wayne]

Re: Metal Fire Sprinkler Piping

Dumb question but if fire sprinkler piping requires grounding, does metal hydronic piping require grounding?

 

[jwelectric]

may i please ask which article or exception do you cite to not bond the sprinkler piping?.

250.104(b)

 

[jwelectric]

As long as the point of connection to the building steel is accessible (RE: Article 250.104, 2008 NEC).gfretwell,

My concern is the voluminous amounts of rigid steel piping that might become energized

with a lightning strike. Shouldn't the bonding be at the fire riser, or at the fire risers in

my case, ...or should points of bonding be in multiple locations for all of the sprinkler

piping installed ? FWIW, this area of the U.S. has a very high, regular occurrence of

lightning strikes.

.

This is the job for 250.52(A)(1) through (8) not a 250.104

 

[gfretwell]

250.52 (the electrode) can't protect the sprinkler pipe if it is not connected per 250.104

 

[jwelectric]

250.52 (the electrode) can't protect the sprinkler pipe if it is not connected per 250.104

Why does it need to be protected from a lightning strike? Is it highter than the roof of the building in which it protects from fire?

 

[gfretwell]

I didn't bring up the lightning.

I actually did reference 250.104(B), which might require bonding.

I do wonder why you think this is not a "water piping system" tho. (just academically)

Personally I think it is a non-issue 99.9% of the time because the sprinkler system is effectively bonded by all of the hangers attached to building steel but they are not listed connectors..

 

[jwelectric]

I didn't bring up the lightning.

Lightning is an electrode thing and the sprinkler is not an electrode

I actually did reference 250.104(B), which might require bonding.

And is bonded with the EGC installed with any branch circuit that is likely to energize it

I do wonder why you think this is not a "water piping system" tho. (just academically)

There is no water in the pipes of a dry system. IF it is a wet system see the answer above

Personally I think it is a non-issue 99.9% of the time because the sprinkler system is effectively bonded by all of the hangers attached to building steel but they are not listed connectors..

A lot of connectors are not listed. What does this have to do with anything

 

[Dennis]

I believe all the sprinkler pipes are grounded thru the water pump connected to the sprinkler system. The code does not allow the sprinkler system to be used as an electrode. In order for the sprinkler pipe to be an electrode it must be in the earth for 10' or more. A plastic pipe feeding an indoor metallic sprinkler system would not make the sprinkler system an electrode.

 

[gfretwell]

I think we all agree, the sprinkler system is not an electrode.

The real question is whether it is a water piping system (wet or dry) in 250.104(A) and whether it is likely to become energized any more than a gas pipe a steam/hydronic heating pipe. (250.104(B))

I suppose the real question would by why you should not bond the sprinkler system. It certainly is not electrolysis. You have steel pipe and a steel building.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

I'm just going to watch this one

I think we all agree, the sprinkler system is not an electrode.The real question is whether it is a water piping system (wet or dry) in 250.104(A) and whether it is likely to become energized any more than a gas pipe a steam/hydronic heating pipe. (250.104(B))

I suppose the real question would by why you should not bond the sprinkler system. It certainly is not electrolysis. You have steel pipe and a steel building.

NFPA 13 is water (wet) base. Read the proposals;

http://ecmweb.com/qampa/code-quandaries-march-2010



Q. Do I need to ground/bond to the metal fire sprinkler piping systems?

A. The metal water piping system must be bonded as required in 250.104(A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3). The bonding jumper must be copper where within 18 in. of earth [250.64(A)], securely fastened to the surface on which it's mounted [250.64(B)], and adequately protected if exposed to physical damage [250.64(B)]. In addition, all points of attachment must be accessible [250.104(A)].

In response to a Code change proposal in 2008, the technical committee stated in its NEC Report on Proposals, "A metallic fire sprinkler piping system is a metal water piping system that is covered by Section 250.104(A). Section 250.104(A) does not differentiate or exclude between the various types of metal water piping systems that might be present in a building or structure." Refer to proposal 5-240 Log #1448 for more information.

NFPA 70 Report on Proposals A2007 — Copyright, NFPA

Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:

FPN: For further information see NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems and NFPA 24, Standard for the Installation of Private Fire Service and Their Appurtenances, for the limited use of these systems as grounding electrodes.

Substantiation: In the 2001 ROP code Proposal 5-165 (Log #3313) included a recommendation to revise section 250-52(A) by adding “Water Based Fire Protection Piping Systems” to be prohibited as a grounding electrode.

The panel rejected the recommendation concluding the following statement applies, “The intentional bonding of all the utilities in a building creates an equipotential ground plane that minimizes the voltage differential between the different systems under normal and abnormal operating conditions. The result is an environment safer from the hazards of electrocution and fire. (Excerpt from January/February, 2000, NFPA Journal article “Grounding, Bonding, and Sprinklers”, by John Caloggero).

There is no disagreement that the bonding of all systems results in a safer environment, however, there is a distinct difference between grounding and bonding as defined in Article 100 of the NEC.

Currently, the NEC does not appear to reference the limited use of these piping systems as part of the grounding electrode system. Therefore, the insertion of a FPN in Part B of this section referencing the limited use of these piping systems would not only be prudent, it will provide continuity between NFPA publications while achieving a more user friendly document.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: These metal water piping systems that meet the criteria in 250.52(A)(1) are grounding electrodes naturally, and as such are required to be bonded to the grounding electrode system. A provision that allows these piping systems to be isolated from the grounding electrode system is not substantiated. The NEC does not differentiate between the various water piping systems that qualify as grounding electrodes, neither does it exempt any.

Number Eligible to Vote: 15

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

Submitter: Ryan Jackson, West Valley City, UT

Recommendation: Revise as follows:

(B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metal piping system(s), including gas piping and fire sprinkler piping , that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes uses. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The

equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety

Substantiation: There is a long-standing debate as to whether fire sprinkler piping is a 250.104(A) or 250.104(B) type of piping. I have spoken with several code experts on this issue, including multiple members of Panel 5, and have received different answers on this issue. Accepting this proposal would end this debate, and would be a step forward in the uniform interpretation of this rule, which is something that we should all be striving for.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: A metallic fire sprinkler piping system is metal water piping system that is covered by Section 250.104(A). Section 250.104(A) does not differentiate or exclude between the various types of metal water piping systems that might be present in a building or structure. Section 250.104(B) covers metal piping systems other than those metal water piping systems covered by 250.104(A).

Number Eligible to Vote: 15

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

Francis

 

[gfretwell]

Interesting

 

[jwelectric]

NFPA 13 is water (wet) base. Read the proposals;

Could you explain just what 7.2 of NFPA 13 is addressing.

 

[rnapier]

Could you explain just what 7.2 of NFPA 13 is addressing.

If you read 3.4.5 of NFPA 13 the ultimate function of a dry system is upon activation "the water then flows into the piping system and out the sprinkler sytem" making it a water system as compared to chemical systems.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Could you explain just what 7.2 of NFPA 13 is addressing.

NFPA 13 is for "Water-Based Fire Protection System" (see 1st page; NFPA 13 Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems). The Dry Pipe Sprinkler System (see definition) referenced 7.2 is a component or part of the NFPA 13 water based system.

Thanks rnapier for the definition while I was framing my response.

Francis

 

[codeworks]

so how about we ponder a fire stuation in a sprnklered building, fire starst up in ceiling area, causes ceiling partial ceiling collap[se before first responders arrive, as this happens, suspnede fixture ( 2x4 troffers fall) , in doing so the mc pulls apart, exposes a hot conductor which lands on a spriknler pipe and energizes it. if it's bonded, good thing, if it's not, not a good thing. open to more discussion?

 

[Francis Vineyard]

so how about we ponder a fire stuation in a sprnklered building, fire starst up in ceiling area, causes ceiling partial ceiling collap[se before first responders arrive, as this happens, suspnede fixture ( 2x4 troffers fall) , in doing so the mc pulls apart, exposes a hot conductor which lands on a spriknler pipe and energizes it. if it's bonded, good thing, if it's not, not a good thing. open to more discussion?

Excellent point codeworks; could make a lesson for a good blog IMO!

I'm not sure, however I'm aware the POCO will be called to disconnect and PW to shut off gas supply, but Fire pumps do not have main overcurrent disconnects; same with emergency back-up generators to run during these events.

Francis

 

[jwelectric]

So I have a sprinkler system that has a diaphragm that prevents water from entering the body of the system until a head releases and some inspector wants this bonded by 250.104(A)? I don’t think at the time of inspection there is a foundation to require this.

As to the example of during a fire the light drops down is completely funny. I think my worries would not be about bonding but instead it would be on getting the hell out of there.

 

[cda]

USSS Guysss could solve this fiscal cliff thing, with no problem!!!!

Not electrical, but is conduit bonded??????

just a question

 

[gfretwell]

So I have a sprinkler system that has a diaphragm that prevents water from entering the body of the system until a head releases and some inspector wants this bonded by 250.104(A)? I don’t think at the time of inspection there is a foundation to require this.As to the example of during a fire the light drops down is completely funny. I think my worries would not be about bonding but instead it would be on getting the hell out of there.

If you believe NFPA that this is water pipe, you are bonding the water piping system, not the water. The piping system is there whether it is full of water or not.

I doubt most electrical inspectors could tell the difference between a wet pipe system and a dry pipe system anyway unless they were also cross certified as a fire marshal. It is certainly not part of the certification process or CEUs that you have to take.

 

[jwelectric]

If you believe NFPA that this is water pipe, you are bonding the water piping system, not the water. The piping system is there whether it is full of water or not.I doubt most electrical inspectors could tell the difference between a wet pipe system and a dry pipe system anyway unless they were also cross certified as a fire marshal. It is certainly not part of the certification process or CEUs that you have to take.

If there hant no water in the pipe but instead it is full of air then it is an air pipe not a water pipe. Even inspectors are smart enough to know this.

 

[cda]

If there hant no water in the pipe but instead it is full of air then it is an air pipe not a water pipe. Even inspectors are smart enough to know this.

So where does metal conduit full of air and insulated wire fall in??

Does it have to be bonded??

 

[codeworks]

yup. thats why the requirement for bonding is in there. "that are likely to become energized"

 

[jwelectric]

So where does metal conduit full of air and insulated wire fall in??Does it have to be bonded??

Well with all that wire on the inside it might become energized. Take out the wire and I would see no need to bond.

 

[codeworks]

put 15 inspectors in aroom, ask one question, you'll get 16 answers. someones going to swap positions after hearing m,ore than he's familier with. get 50 on website, it never ends. happy new year