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Mixed Use M/S-1

M

MA_Architect

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Apr 8, 2014
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United States
This has got to be a noob question, but here it goes.

I have an existing 1 floor 14,900 SF III-B building with an automotive repair facility(S-1) (Haz-mat under IBC limits) and a grocery store (M). According to 2009 IBC, the strictest use is M (12,500 SF). Assuming the building is not sprinklers (for area increase), normally I would just provide fire separation in accordance with 508.2 to provide a separated mixed use building. However the requirement is N (No Separation Required).

It reads as though any separation between the two (even a wall made of rice paper) would suffice, though the red flags are going off in my head. It really cant be that simple, can it? Right now the wall separating the two units is a 2x4 stud wall with open studs on one side.
 
Looks like you are reading correctly but would rely on the replies from smarter posters
 
But you see what I mean? If I am correct, then I can build a 0 hour wall between a 12,500 sf M and a 15,000 sf S-1, and get a 27,500 sf building. Just doesn't seem right.
 
Well as long as you meet all other provisions of the I can

Are you over in area??? At 27,000

Plus sprinklers ??

Now with the building size you may be adding a few things, but no separation seems required
 
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What are the Haz-mats, and what amounts and is the fire code adopted in your jurisdiction?
 
kilitact said:
What are the Haz-mats, and what amounts and is the fire code adopted in your jurisdiction?
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I think he is saying normal garage with garage things below max limits
 
= * = * =

According to the definition of Fire Areas [ RE: Section 902.1, `09 IBC ],

an approved fire sprinkler system is required in Fire Areas that exceed

12,000 SF for an M Occupancy [ RE: Section 903.2.7 Group M ]:

"An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a

Group M occupancy where one of the following conditions exists: [F]

1. A Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2).

2. A Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane.

3. The combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any

mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2).

4. A Group M occupancy is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture



= * = * =
 
The key is area for each occupancy to determine fire sprinklers. Odd as it seems, the occupancies do not require fire separation.
 
Assuming the building is not sprinklers (for area increase)
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You lost me here

The building has to be sprinkled because the fire area exceeds 12,000 sq ft for the M and or the S-1

A 3 hour fire barrier would be required if no sprinklers are installed

707.3.9 Fire areas.

The fire barriers or horizontal assemblies , or both, separating a single occupancy into different fire areas shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than that indicated in Table 707.3.9. The fire barriers or horizontal assemblies , or both, separating fire areas of mixed occupancies shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than the highest value indicated in Table 707.3.9 for the occupancies under consideration.
 
Not sure what code edition you are dealing with, but from '09 IBC it looks like you need sprinklers due to the S-1 fire area exceeding 12,000 sf.

903.2.9 Group S-1. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout all buildings containing a Group S-1 occupancy where one of the following conditions exists: [F]

1. A Group S-1 fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2).

2. A Group S-1 fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane.

3. The combined area of all Group S-1 fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2).

4. A Group S-1 fire area used for the storage of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).

903.2.9.1 Repair garages. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout all buildings used as repair garages in accordance with Section 406, as shown: [F] 1. Buildings having two or more stories above grade plane, including basements, with a fire area containing a repair garage exceeding 10,000 square feet (929 m2).

2. Buildings no more than one story above grade plane, with a fire area containing a repair garage exceeding 12,000 square feet (1115 m2). 3. Buildings with repair garages servicing vehicles parked in basements. 4. A Group S-1 fire area used for the repair of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
 
I think his general question throwing out everything else was

Why no separation required between M and S-1
 
Sorry if this is also a noob question but why is the automotive repair shop set as a S-1. Automotive repair should be a F-1 as long as the hazmat qtys are low enough to keep it out of H occupancy.

306.1 Factory Industrial Group F.

Factory Industrial Group F occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for assembling, disassembling, fabricating, finishing, manufacturing, packaging, repair or processing operations that are not classified as a Group H hazardous or Group S storage occupancy.

How are you justifying the S-1? It isn't storage of vehicles unless it is ancillary to a F-1 space used for the actual repair activities.
 
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Redtag - The IBC puts motor vehicle repair in the S-1 group, provided it complies with maximum quantities of hazardous materials.

311.2 Moderate-hazard storage, Group S-1. Buildings occupied for storage uses that are not classified as Group S-2, including, but not limited to, storage of the following:

Aerosols, Levels 2 and 3

Aircraft hangar (storage and repair)

Bags: cloth, burlap and paper

Bamboos and rattan

Baskets

Belting: canvas and leather

Books and paper in rolls or packs

Boots and shoes

Buttons, including cloth covered, pearl or bone

Cardboard and cardboard boxes

Clothing, woolen wearing apparel

Cordage

Dry boat storage (indoor)

Furniture

Furs

Glues, mucilage, pastes and size

Grains

Horns and combs, other than celluloid

Leather

Linoleum

Lumber

Motor vehicle repair garages complying with the maximum allowable quantities of hazardous materials listed in Table 307.1(1) (see Section 406.6)

Photo engravings

Resilient flooring

Silks

Soaps

Sugar

Tires, bulk storage of

Tobacco, cigars, cigarettes and snuff

Upholstery and mattresses

Wax candles
 
Mech said:
Redtag - The IBC puts motor vehicle repair in the S-1 group, provided it complies with maximum quantities of hazardous materials.311.2 Moderate-hazard storage, Group S-1. Buildings occupied for storage uses that are not classified as Group S-2, including, but not limited to, storage of the following:

Aerosols, Levels 2 and 3

Aircraft hangar (storage and repair)

Bags: cloth, burlap and paper

Bamboos and rattan

Baskets

Belting: canvas and leather

Books and paper in rolls or packs

Boots and shoes

Buttons, including cloth covered, pearl or bone

Cardboard and cardboard boxes

Clothing, woolen wearing apparel

Cordage

Dry boat storage (indoor)

Furniture

Furs

Glues, mucilage, pastes and size

Grains

Horns and combs, other than celluloid

Leather

Linoleum

Lumber

Motor vehicle repair garages complying with the maximum allowable quantities of hazardous materials listed in Table 307.1(1) (see Section 406.6)

Photo engravings

Resilient flooring

Silks

Soaps

Sugar

Tires, bulk storage of

Tobacco, cigars, cigarettes and snuff

Upholstery and mattresses

Wax candles
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Thanks. Not sure how I missed that one. Guess I saved a guy a change of use last week when I let him move his repair shop into an F-1 occupancy building. Looks like I am safe though as both have same requirements for his little one car shop. Sorry for the hijack.
 
RedTag said:
Thanks. Not sure how I missed that one. Guess I saved a guy a change of use last week when I let him move his repair shop into an F-1 occupancy building. Looks like I am safe though as both have same requirements for his little one car shop. Sorry for the hijack.
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welcome again

you can put it in the "young and dumb" category of yea there are alot of things in the code and you have to read every word, but this one did not matter and I learned from it.

will not be the last one either.
 
Wow, thanks for the replies. I made a site visit, and both uses are sprinkled. Inspector just wants separation even though not required. I'm not going to argue over an extra layer or drywall. In the end, very minor.
 
MA_Architect said:
Wow, thanks for the replies. I made a site visit, and both uses are sprinkled. Inspector just wants separation even though not required. I'm not going to argue over an extra layer or drywall. In the end, very minor.
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I would ask said inspector for code section so I could research what it says,

Maybe a local admendment driving it

Maybe a misunderstanding of the code

Inspector should be able to give code section with no problem and should be willing to do it.

Possibly save time and money.

So are both new businesses? Or something else driving the inspector involment ???
 
The mixed use non-sep concept is difficult to grasp for some people....I have gone over it with some of my FM's in strip malls and such, and they usually say: "But it is a tenant separation" and I say But it does not need to be rated....With the exceptions of the R stuff....Never a bad idea, just not required these days if it ever was...
 
Sometimes the M has Haz-mats, and the repair garage can be normal(?) with haz-mats, both can be below the IBC MA but depending on type and amount the fire code could drive other requirements. Perhaps this is what the inspector sees?
 
"But it is a tenant separation"
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Tenant separation is required in covered and open mall buildings

402.4.2.1 Tenant separations.

Each tenant space shall be separated from other tenant spaces by a fire partition complying with Section 708. A tenant separation wall is not required between any tenant space and the mall.

There is no such thing as a "strip mall" under the code
 
IF you are relying upon Table 508.4 and going with no rated separation, then you must determine the 'sum of the ratios' does not exceed 1 (see 508.4.2).

With both occupancies near their individual limits, the sum of the ratios would exceed 1 and therefore be non-compliant.

Adding a separation as proposed earlier, per 707, would allow each fire area to comply individually.
 
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