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Mixing 12 and 14 ga.

steveray

steveray

SAWHORSE
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
14,011
Location
West of the river CT
Anyone got a code section....15 amp breaker, 12 ga wire leaves panel, goes in to 4" square in basement, comes out 14ga.....is it a violation? Or not until someone sees the 12 ga. and ups to a 20 amp breaker?
 
Thanks all! It doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, due to the probability that someone might up the breaker with a false sense of 12 ga circuit, but I guess it complies....
 
Same old story I guess, can't regulate stupid and can't base on what someone might do...just no faith that someone would just upsize to 20AMP seeing the 12 GA without knowing there was 14GA downstream and....POOF!
 
Not a code violation and we see it alot with do it yourselfers and homeowners. If I have to explain it to them how to do something they shouldn't be doing the work. Hire a professional it's cheaper than having to pay them to fix it later.
 
no problem as long as the breaker is sized for the smallest gaged wire on the branch circuit
 
Many jurisdictions would require the owner to label the circuit reflecting that it can only be used with a 15A OCPD but safeguarding people against themselves if a time consuming task. It is not a code violation as others have stated as long as the branch circuit is protected in accordance with its relevant ampacity and of course 240.4(D).
 
Paul brings up a good point that our company requires. If you mix sizes, we want the circuit labeled with a maximum OCPD size. Nothing but bad can happen when a new owner or electrician changes the breaker size based on the size of the conductor connected to the OCPD.
 
jar546 said:
Paul brings up a good point that our company requires. If you mix sizes, we want the circuit labeled with a maximum OCPD size. Nothing but bad can happen when a new owner or electrician changes the breaker size based on the size of the conductor connected to the OCPD.
Click to expand...
Do you require the labeling for circuits that are up sized for voltage drop?

Chris
 
Can't speak for all jurisdictions but most inspectors can tell when someone is increasing for VD or Harry homeowner using scraps to complete a job. Like it or not....its what many AHJ's want and some may slip through but i am sure they don't lose any sleep over it but as Jar stated...some reputable companies will identify it anyway. FYI- I just might identify circuits where VD was an issue but that's pride talking.
 
And that's all and good for recommendations, but there is nothing you can force in this instance, it's permissable by code, unless by local amendment, just sayin........
 
raider1 said:
Do you require the labeling for circuits that are up sized for voltage drop?Chris
Click to expand...
No sir, we do not but every case is different and we should ask them if there is a decrease in wire size on the other end.

We tell them mixing wire is not a code violation (unless the wrong OCPD is installed) but we want the circuit labeled. The installers are happy to comply and don't argue. Most of the time we see 12 awg branch circuits that also handle lighting and they install 14 awg from the switch to the light(s). Other time, they are not licensed electricians and just don't know better. They run a 12 to the bathroom circuit then 14 from there to the light/fan combo and switches.
 
It's a common practice around here for the installer to run #12 AWG homeruns and then switch over to #14 AWG to hit all the outlets on the circuit.

Though positively a code violation to supply #14 AWG from a 20-ampere branch-circuit for general power & lighting circuits, #14 AWG will carry 20 amperes continuously & will never exceed even the minimum temperature rating of 60 degrees C. So I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it in the event it did occur.
 
If I put #10 on a 15a breaker, it's legal. If I manage to wrestle #8 on it, it's legal.

What the next person who comes along needs to do is read the definition of "Qualified Personel".
 
Greetings

Legal for sure. The #14 if protected by the proper size ocp. I've found that to be common question over the years too.

BS
 
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