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Modification for drinking fountain requirement.

R

righter101

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
604
I have an older building that was a grocery store. A new store was built and the old bldg. is vacant. Proposal is in the works to make it a gym/exercise facility.

I have been asked to consider a modification to allow a water cooler with the 5 gallon jugs in lieu of a drinking fountain.

Background: this is a 4000-5000 square foot building. This is a VERY remote, rural location. Cost of work is important.

I am leaning towards approving the modification with a few conditions (must be distilled, commerical water, minimum number of jugs in reserve, etc..)

Anyone have any thoughts or reasons why you would or wouldn't approve this???

Not a biggie, but wanted some feedback.

Thanks.
 
Change of use makes it hard to get around the drinking fountain requirement. People who work out need copious amounts of water.

co·pi·ous/ˈkōpēəs/Adjective: Abundant in supply or quantity.

Synonyms: abundant - plentiful - profuse - ample - rich - generous
 
righter101,

How will the AHJ ensure / guarantee that once the final inspection is done and

the C. of O. is issued that the water cooler will remain?

If it is possible, have them install the compliant ADA type drinking water

fountain, for the designed Occupant Loads. Also, a "permanently" installed

drinking water fountain will be required to be connected to a GFCI rated

circuit.

.
 
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GT, why do you think a water cooler/GFCI circuit is required? A simple cold water bubbler should be compliant; I do not think the water is required to be chilled.
 
gbhammer,

Please refer to Article 422.52 in the 2008 NEC. Agree, "chilled water" not required, but

when a permanent drinking fountain is installed, then GFCI protection is required.

.
 
brudgers said:
Are you sure? Because I've never heard of that before.
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I guess I didn't make it clear that cost and/or cost savings is important to the applicant. that is what that is referring to.

Not me. Not my jurisdiction. And for the record, I am not "making up code out of whole cloth", or "making applicants dance for my amusement".
 
globe trekker said:
gbhammer,Please refer to Article 422.52 in the 2008 NEC. Agree, "chilled water" not required, but

when a permanent drinking fountain is installed, then GFCI protection is required.

.
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I get it, you chill you GFCI. My point was that the client or tenant wants to spend very little; use a bubbler.
 
globe trekker said:
gbhammer,Please refer to Article 422.52 in the 2008 NEC. Agree, "chilled water" not required, but

when a permanent drinking fountain is installed, then GFCI protection is required.

.
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The article refers to electric drinking fountains and you read permanent. The only reason for electricity is to chill the water. No chilled water no electricity and so no 422.52. No?
 
imhotep,

That's my thinking as well, but the drinking water resource DOES have to be ADA

compliant! I just have not seen any "non-chilled", ADA compliant, permanently

installed drinking fountains.

.
 
Msradell said:
http://www.wayfair.com/Kohler-Millbrooke-Drinking-Fountain-K-5264-KOH3960.html?refid=GPA49-KOH3960_2856645&PiID=2856645&gclid=COvXiei27K4CFQda7AodixweNQ
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If you install a new DF you need to install a hi/low

images


602.4 Spout Height. Spout outlets shall be 36 inches maximum above the finish floor or ground.

602.7 Drinking Fountains for Standing Persons. Spout outlets of drinking fountains for standing persons shall be 38 inches minimum and 43 inches maximum above the finish floor or ground.

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm#pgfId-1010397
 
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Blubbers are fine.

Make a notation on the CO that there was a bubbler drinking fountain at inspection and go on.

Bill
 
KZQuixote said:
Blubbers are fine. Make a notation on the CO that there was a bubbler drinking fountain at inspection and go on.Bill
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Code section?

And how does your bubbler comply with

Sections 4.1.3(10) and 4.15 of the 1991 Standards and sections 211 and 602 of the 2010 Standards require drinking fountains to be provided for persons who use wheelchairs and for others who stand.
 
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mark handler said:
If you install a new DF you need to install a hi/low
images


602.4 Spout Height. Spout outlets shall be 36 inches maximum above the finish floor or ground.

602.7 Drinking Fountains for Standing Persons. Spout outlets of drinking fountains for standing persons shall be 38 inches minimum and 43 inches maximum above the finish floor or ground.

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/2010ADAstandards.htm#pgfId-1010397
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For the sake of debate I am going to counter the argument stating that only a DF will be compliant.

Now, I will say this, given the use is a gym/exercise space. I would rather see bottled water or other device than a DF anytime.

1. who will replace the cups. Who replaces the toilet paper rolls in the restroom. Staff.

If they are missing, you would notify staff and they would be replaced.

But given the nature of the space, i am expecting most users have a 20oz reusable bottler they are refilling rather than drinking from the spout.

2. who will replace the cups. who is cleaning the drinking fountain, how often, etc.

3. who will replace the cups, have you ever seen how close some people come to drinking out of the spouts. And in a gym environment, how often have you seen some one take a swig, swish and spit back into the df.

4. you will need a hi lo. Well it seems to me that ADA does a great job of accommodating a person in a wheel chair or without any other physical limitations. But what of the 7 foot tall person with a bad back?

5. how is the water in the area? we are assuming here the pipes from source to spout is safe. Yes I know that municipal water sources are supposed to be more regulated (though I know of some bottled water that is bottled municipal water.).

6. How is this not an acceptable alternative. Has existed for years. BTW, how many places of employment have coffee makers.

7. Is the purpose of the code to provide access or sell df's?
 
Bottom line, bottled water cooler is not acceptable under ADA... There's no need to worry about who's going to refill the cups if the person with the disability cannot grasp a cup in the first place... (closed fist rule of the ADA...) user must be able to gain access to accessible features using a "closed fist"... It has nothing to do with wheelchair accessability. (except for reach and range.)Domestic public water supply is "understood" in the code to be a reliable source of potable water... However, there is nothing in the code that would prevent the use of a water cooler as well as the DF... (or the sale of bottled water either...)This is from the ADAAG of the DOJ web site...CHAPTER 6: PLUMBING ELEMENTS AND FACILITIES 601 General 601.1 Scope. The provisions of Chapter 6 shall apply where required by Chapter 2 or where referenced by a requirement in this document. 602 Drinking Fountains 602.1 General. Drinking fountains shall comply with 307 and 602. 602.2 Clear Floor Space. Units shall have a clear floor or ground space complying with 305 positioned for a forward approach and centered on the unit. Knee and toe clearance complying with 306 shall be provided.EXCEPTION: A parallel approach complying with 305 shall be permitted at units for children's use where the spout is 30 inches (760 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground and is 3 1/2 inches (90 mm) maximum from the front edge of the unit, including bumpers. 602.3 Operable Parts. Operable parts shall comply with 309. 602.4 Spout Height. Spout outlets shall be 36 inches (915 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground. 602.5 Spout Location. The spout shall be located 15 inches (380 mm) minimum from the vertical support and 5 inches (125 mm) maximum from the front edge of the unit, including bumpers.
ADA-AB59.gif
Figure 602.5 Drinking Fountain Spout Location 602.6 Water Flow. The spout shall provide a flow of water 4 inches (100 mm) high minimum and shall be located 5 inches (125 mm) maximum from the front of the unit. The angle of the water stream shall be measured horizontally relative to the front face of the unit. Where spouts are located less than 3 inches (75 mm) of the front of the unit, the angle of the water stream shall be 30 degrees maximum. Where spouts are located between 3 inches (75 mm) and 5 inches (125 mm) maximum from the front of the unit, the angle of the water stream shall be 15 degrees maximum. Advisory 602.6 Water Flow. The purpose of requiring the drinking fountain spout to produce a flow of water 4 inches (100 mm) high minimum is so that a cup can be inserted under the flow of water to provide a drink of water for an individual who, because of a disability, would otherwise be incapable of using the drinking fountain. 602.7 Drinking Fountains for Standing Persons. Spout outlets of drinking fountains for standing persons shall be 38 inches (965 mm) minimum and 43 inches (1090 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground.Also, after the novelty of the gym has wained and the next occupant moves in... a water cooler contract will be gone with the gym owner and a DF will need to be installed anyway...Here is your argument to the contractor... "You can pay the $400.00 for a DF now... or your client can pay the $10,000.00 lawsuit brought about by the ADA lawers later... Your choise..." (BTW: if you approve the use of a water cooler, you will be party to the lawsuit also...)

View attachment 545

View attachment 545

/monthly_2012_03/ADA-AB59.gif.406c61baa4b6d26ddb45e61940c082e6.gif
 
Or you can ammend the requirement of a drinking fountain out of the code.

ANS

ANSI and ADA do not require drinking fountains but if installed the have to meet it.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Or you can ammend the requirement of a drinking fountain out of the code.ANS

ANSI and ADA do not require drinking fountains but if installed the have to meet it.
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Um... Requirements for drinking fountains are given in Chapter 4 of the 2009 International

Plumbing Code (IPC) and in Chapters 11 and 29 of the 2009 International Building

Code (IBC). IPC Table 403.1 requires drinking fountains in all occupancies except

Groups R-1 and R-4 and Group R-2 apartments...

Maybe this article will help clear this up...

Getting back to the cost issue... THE 2010 ADA STANDARDS FOR ACCESSIBLE DESIGN (that is found here...) Says that more than 20% of the costs of renovations would constitute a disproportionate cost of relotation of a drinking fountain and may be waived... But, in this case there is not fountain, so that is mute...
 
Righter doesn't say where he's located, if he's in California he might suggest limiting occupancy to <30 and eliminate the DF altogether, a 4,000 to 5,000 square foot gym isn't very large, if not in California maybe his state has a similar provision.

2010 CPC said:
(Footnote 17) A drinking fountain shall not be required in occupancies of 30 or less. When a drinking fountain is not required, then footnotes 3, 12, and 13 are not applicable.
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How would a bottled water system satisfy the requirements for disabled access. How inthe world would a disabled person obtain a cup, hold it, and activate a button to obtain the warer without the ability to tightly grasp, twist, etc.? let alone the access issues from a reach range perspective.
 
conarb said:
Righter doesn't say where he's located, if he's in California he might suggest limiting occupancy to <30 and eliminate the DF altogether, a 4,000 to 5,000 square foot gym isn't very large, if not in California maybe his state has a similar provision.
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We are located in the State of Washington.

The occupant load (plumbing) will be greater than 30.

The state has amended CH 29 of the IBC but even with those req's, a drinking fountain would still be required.

Interesting discussion I sparked here. I understand some of the ramifications more now.

It seems like I essentially have 2 choices.

1, follow letter of the law code and have them provide an accessible drinking fountain or....

2, make a modification eliminating the drinking fountain requirement entirely. (thus eliminating accessibilty concerns).

I think they are going to need to put this in.
 
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