Modification for drinking fountain requirement.

[Papio Bldg Dept]

We amended our code for the df requirement to be tied in with the separate facilities restroom exceptions in the IPC. If separate facilities aren't required, a df is not required in our jurisdiction. We will be looking at the df and service sink requirements in our upcoming code adoption process.

 

[mtlogcabin]

How would a bottled water system satisfy the requirements for disabled access. How inthe world would a disabled person obtain a cup, hold it, and activate a button to obtain the warer without the ability to tightly grasp, twist, etc.? let alone the access issues from a reach range perspective.

2 seperate issues

The building and plumbing codes require a drinking fountain as quoted by Bob Phoenix. They do not require access for the disabled

The ANSI and ADA standards are where the minimum/maximum for making a drinking fountain accessible.

Nothing in the building code addresses the ability to hold a cup.

If a code ammendement allows a bottled water device in place of a required drinking fountain (Mt does in certain occupancies) then it is code compliant.

If ADA or ANSI want to address accessibility at a bottled water dispenser then they should adopt some guidelines.

FYI Montana has 1,000's of businesses that do not have potable water on site, some are open to the public some are not.

Bottled drinking water is the only option available

 

[mark handler]

2 seperate issuesThe building and plumbing codes require a drinking fountain as quoted by Bob Phoenix. They do not require access for the disabled

The ANSI and ADA standards are where the minimum/maximum for making a drinking fountain accessible.

Nothing in the building code addresses the ability to hold a cup.

If a code ammendement allows a bottled water device in place of a required drinking fountain (Mt does in certain occupancies) then it is code compliant.

If ADA or ANSI want to address accessibility at a bottled water dispenser then they should adopt some guidelines.

FYI Montana has 1,000's of businesses that do not have potable water on site, some are open to the public some are not.

Bottled drinking water is the only option available

The most building and plumbing codes do require access to all provided fixtures and amenities

 

[gbhammer]

We amended our code for the df requirement to be tied in with the separate facilities restroom exceptions in the IPC. If separate facilities aren't required, a df is not required in our jurisdiction. We will be looking at the df and service sink requirements in our upcoming code adoption process.

2009 IPC table 403.1 note f : no df for spaces that have 15 or fewer occupants.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

2009 IPC table 403.1 note f : no df for spaces that have 15 or fewer occupants.

We are still under the 2006 IBC/IPC. We will definitely be considering the accessibility issues with water coolers and bottled water dispensers that were raised in this thread. I can see where mt is coming from, especially where potable water is not provided at all, but I am not sure how to reconcile that with Chapter 11, Section 1109.5, where provided/required shall be accessible, which 403 & 404 of the IPC both do.

At a glance (in terms of our adopted codes), I do not see how a water cooler or bottled water dispenser does not provide the same accessible potable water service requirements as that of a restaurant if someone is there serve it.

 

[globe trekker]

At a glance (in terms of our adopted codes), I do not see how a water cooler orbottled water dispenser does not provide the same accessible potable water service

requirements as that of a restaurant if someone is there serve it.

The same level of service can be provided, however, the bottled dispensers or watercoolers can be discontinued / removed once the C. of O. is obtained by the owner,

whereas, a permanently installed drinking fountain cannot be so easily removed.

This would reduce their operating costs ( i.e. - profit ).

.

 

[Big Mac]

Let me see if I can lay this out suscinctly.

When the occupant load exceeds 30, not less than one drinking fountain for the first 150 occupants shall be provided. When the occupant load exceeds 150, one additional drinking fountain is required for each 500 occupants. Section 2904.4.1.

Where drinking fountains are provided on an exterior site, on a floor, or within a secured area, the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with Sections 1109.5.1 and 1109.5.2. Section 1109.5.

On floors where drinking fountains are provided, at least one but not less than 50% shall be accessible and at least one shall be mounted at a standard height. Section 1109.5.1.

Accessible Drinking Fountains shall comply with 602 and 307. 03ICC/ANSI A117.1, Section 602.1.

Operable parts shall comply with Section 309. 03ICC/ANSI A117.1, Section 602.3.

Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. 03ICC/ANSI A117.1, Section 309.3.

Again I ask, how can you possibly satisfy these requirements with a bottled water system?

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Let me see if I can lay this out suscinctly.Again I ask, how can you possibly satisfy these requirements with a bottled water system?

Those requirements you can not, however if you don't require a df because it is a restaurant, then there are minimal differences, between that service and service from another potable water source such as water cooler/bottled-water dispenser, especially if neither are self-service.

 

[mtlogcabin]

but I am not sure how to reconcile that with Chapter 11, Section 1109.5, where provided/required shall be accessible, which 403 & 404 of the IPC both do.

1109.5 is not the charging language requiring a drinking fountain. It is merely there to address the accesibility requirements if one is provided

1109.5 Drinking fountains.

Where drinking fountains are provided

All an AHJ has to do is ammend footnote "f" to whatever number they choose 50, 150, 1,000. Just remember to do it in both the building and plumbing codes.

[P] TABLE 2902.1

f. Drinking fountains are not required for an occupant load of 15 or fewer

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

1109.5 is not the charging language requiring a drinking fountain. It is merely there to address the accesibility requirements if one is provided

That is what I was trying to say, but apparently did not say it clearly.

 

[Big Mac]

Papio - How did we get from talking about a excercise facility to a restaurant?

Mtlogcabin - Yes I suppose if you modify the code enough so it is no longer recognizable as the code, most anyhting is possible. I can see where it is possible to modify the code right out of existence.

However for the excercise facility orriginally discussed, and assuming the code is being applied as written (apparently this is a pretty big assumption in some places) it seems unlikley that a drinking fountain is not required, in which case one should be paying attention to said code requirements.

 

[gbhammer]

Papio - How did we get from talking about a excercise facility to a restaurant?Mtlogcabin - Yes I suppose if you modify the code enough so it is no longer recognizable as the code, most anyhting is possible. I can see where it is possible to modify the code right out of existence.

However for the excercise facility orriginally discussed, and assuming the code is being applied as written (apparently this is a pretty big assumption in some places) it seems unlikley that a drinking fountain is not required, in which case one should be paying attention to said code requirements.

A gymnasium and a restaurant are both assembly occupancies, and plenty of gym's have juice bars or areas that serve beverages, and even food. IPC 410 where water is served in restaurants df's are not required. So not that big of a jump in logic.

 

[mtlogcabin]

It seems like I essentially have 2 choices.1, follow letter of the law code and have them provide an accessible drinking fountain or....

2, make a modification eliminating the drinking fountain requirement entirely. (thus eliminating accessibilty concerns).

I think they are going to need to put this in.

The OP has already reach the correct decision for this project for the ammended codes he has to work with.

The codes will never be a one document fit every jurisdictional need document. There will always be regional differences in how different occupancies are looked at and used. Rural and large cities have vastly different residents, businesses and services to provide to them. Pointing out how a simple code ammendment to eliminate a DF would also remove an accessibility issue isn't the begining of modifing a code out of existance. It may simply be bringing it back to where it is minimal and practical for the residence and business owners of that jurisdiction. Just because the ICC publishes a code does not make everything in it it correct and practicle.

 

[miguele3]

In California, the 30x48 space must be centered on the low drinking fountain meaning the 32" clear won't work. Depending on your DF model you could need a 48" clear space or bigger.

 

[zigmark]

righter-

Seem to be a few tangents here that don't apply to your situation.

While all of this discussion is interesting, the references to the IPC and the CBC are irrelevant since here in WA we enforce the 2009 UPC as ammended by WA State as well as the ammended 2009 IBC chapter 29. Also do not forget that ammending anything other than Chapter 1 of either of the codes noted above requires submittal and approval to the SBCC (state building code council) to be enforcable. The State also deems any ammendment to the IBC or IRC affecting accessibility is prohibitted and that any Standard adopted in RCW 19.27 and 19.27A can not be ammended by any local jurisdiction. You can find all of this information by downloading the Washington State Ammendments to the IBC here https://fortress.wa.gov/ga/apps/sbcc/default.aspx.

So while many of the ideas provided are great it sorta seems that reuquiring the dringking fountain would be the easiest thing.

Just my 2 cents-

ZIG

 

[globe trekker]

Sooooooo, ...resurrecting this thread again. If a Water Cooler is proposed for a project

of "new" construction; instead of an ADA compliant, Hi-Lo drinking fountain, that the

Water Cooler will not meet the requirements of Section 309.4 of the 2003 Edition, ICC/

ANSI A117.1 = Operable Parts.

Mac stated:

Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. 03ICC/ANSI A117.1, Section 309.3.

QUESTION # 1: Am I correct in determining that this is the Code Section with the

"charging language" for requiring an ADA compliant, Hi-Lo drinking fountain instead of

a Water Cooler?, or is there a code section that allows the non-Accessible Water

Cooler? FWIW, we have not amended anything in our adopted codes.

QUESTION # 2: Where is the source for Public Drinking Water "required" to be

located? I have a "new" B Occ. Group (Med. clinic) with a small Patient Waiting Area

and the dp's have a water cooler indicated in the rear of the tenant space, in the

Break Room.

We are using the 2006 Edition of the I-codes & the 2003 Edition of the ICC/ANSI

A117.1 Standard.

As always, please provide the applicable code sections (if possible), and "thanks"

for your input!

.

 

[lunatick]

Change of use makes it hard to get around the drinking fountain requirement. People who work out need copious amounts of water.co·pi·ous/ˈkōpēəs/Adjective: Abundant in supply or quantity.

Synonyms: abundant - plentiful - profuse - ample - rich - generous

Many of those, bringing in their own container to fill/refill.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Operable parts shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. 03ICC/ANSI A117.1, Section 309.3.

QUESTION # 1: Am I correct in determining that this is the Code Section with the

"charging language" for requiring an ADA compliant, Hi-Lo drinking fountain instead of

a Water Cooler?, or is there a code section that allows the non-Accessible Water

Cooler? FWIW, we have not amended anything in our adopted codes.

I use 1109.5 (2006 IBC) for charging as stated earlier. Then I go to the 2003 ANSI/A117.1

1109.5 Drinking Fountains.

Where drinking founatins are provided on an exterior site, on a floor or within a secured area, the drinking fountains shall be provided in accordance with Section 1109.5.1 (Minimum Number + Substitution Exception) and 1109.5.2 (More than the minimum Number + Substitution Exception).

QUESTION # 2: Where is the source for Public Drinking Water "required" to be

located? I have a "new" B Occ. Group (Med. clinic) with a small Patient Waiting Area

and the dp's have a water cooler indicated in the rear of the tenant space, in the

Break Room.

I use 403.4 (2006 IPC)/2902.4 (2006 IBC) as a recommended locationeven though it addresses public toilet facilities. 410.2, prohibited locations is the code minimum and that only says not in a public restroom.

 

[GCtony]

righter, I personally believe that the building official folks have an obligation to educate the public. That being said, would it be less expensive long term to install a pair of bubblers than having to buy water and cups for the time they occupy the space? As a GC, I've been down this raod before, (I wont mention the franchise name) the tenant thinking they can get by with bottled water for a final inspection, then do away with the bottle with the intent of selling 16oz. bottles for a profit to those that have forgotten to bring their own.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

gt...just cracked open my new copy of the 2012 IPC commentary. 410.3 (Substitution) is a new section, and it noted in the commentary that the section was added to clarify the intent of the code as the following quotation indicates:

"Although this section is new for the 2012 edition, it only serves to make clear the intent of what the code has required for many code editions. Restaurants are not required to have drinking fountains as long as water is served in a container, free of charge. Where a restaurant provides purchased beverages in disposable cups, drinking water must still be free of charge even though the restaurant incurs a cost for the disposable cups.

403.5 of the 2012 IPC addresses location of drinking fountains where previous editions were silent. It is still vague in my opinion.