NFPA 101 just what is it?

[gbhammer]

R311.7.9 Special stairways. … shall comply with all requirements of section R311.7

R311.7 Stairways. (yes stairways period)Not stairways that are a part of MOE.

If that were the case they would have said so seeing as how they did just that in R311.7.9.2 bulkhead stairs in basements that are not the required means of egress do not need to meet the requirements of R311.7It is a stair not a ladder just because Brudger thinks it should be called one. There is no definition for ladder because they are common items, and when you look at one you know what it is. Look at the spiral in the Ex-Mayor’s office and no one would call it a ladder, they would 99.9% of the time say spiral stair. The .01% would be a baby with no vocabulary yet.

 

[ICE]

The .01% would be a baby with no vocabulary yet.

I do enjoy you.

 

[brudgers]

Well one must accept the premise that Section R311 applies to one complete means of egress and excludes all other instances of the use of the components found in section R311. Then again, maybe not. Your ladder would have to look a lot more like a ladder and a lot less like spiral stairs to keep me from grinning when you tell me it's a ladder.

Always glad to make you smile. Is your city attorney an employee, or a contractor paid by the hour?

 

[brudgers]

R311.7.9 Special stairways. … shall comply with all requirements of section R311.7 R311.7 Stairways. (yes stairways period)Not stairways that are a part of MOE. If that were the case they would have said so seeing as how they did just that in R311.7.9.2 bulkhead stairs in basements that are not the required means of egress do not need to meet the requirements of R311.7It is a stair not a ladder just because Brudger thinks it should be called one. There is no definition for ladder because they are common items, and when you look at one you know what it is. Look at the spiral in the Ex-Mayor’s office and no one would call it a ladder, they would 99.9% of the time say spiral stair. The .01% would be a baby with no vocabulary yet.

If it doesn't comply, it ain't a stairway.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

c'est ne pas une stair? Magritte would be so dissappointed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Magritte#Philosophical_and_artistic_gestures

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

If it doesn't comply, it ain't a stairway.

It is a piece of art...and if kermudgingly ex-mayors want to climb up and down pieces of art installed in their home instead of taking the stairs like normal people, I for one am vertically inclined to let them.

 

[gbhammer]

If it doesn't comply, it ain't a stairway.

Interesting way to look :inspctr at the code. No stair in a walk out basement needs ever to comply with 311.7 ever again. :surr

Ha the HBA will dance a jig and memorialize Brudgers as the great liberator. :cheers

SHEEEEESH :banghd

 

[cda]

It is a piece of art...and if kermudgingly ex-mayors want to climb up and down pieces of art installed in their home instead of taking the stairs like normal people, I for one am vertically inclined to let them.

If it doesn't comply, it ain't a stairway.

No it is a spiral stair with code violations

Just because a house has code violations, that does not make it not a house

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

No it is a spiral stair with code violationsJust because a house has code violations, that does not make it not a house

but we are saying that a metal stair shaped thingy is not a stair, and therefore there are no non-compliance issues. Think of it as someone putting in a slide, which I actually did for a client. they had a perfectly compliant stair that served the second floor, and they had a gate at the top of the slide. Just cause the kids climbed back up the slide instead of taking the stairs didn't mean I neede to make the slide comply with stairs section of the code.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I suppose you could also think of it as a fire-man's pole...albeit there might be a few things to encumber one's descent.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

No it is a spiral stair with code violationsJust because a house has code violations, that does not make it not a house

If I put two headers (2-2x12s + 2-2x6s) in a wall over an opening requiring a minimum 2-2x12 header, and the second header is a 2-2x6 header which would be non-compliant if the 2-2x12 was not installed, would you still write me up, or just shake your head and laugh at me for being silly?

 

[gbhammer]

Why have a stair at all from the second floor if the bedrooms have egress windows. Just use a slide they already have an MOE.

Why make the stair comply if they have egress windows.

cda said it taking that path of logic "lets just not call it house so long as there is a violation it doesn't need to meet any standard of the code since it really isn't a house" that just won't work its like have youre cake and eat it too.

 

[permitguy]

These receptacles are in excess of the minimum required; therefore, I can wire them however I please.

That furnace is capable of providing the minimum level of heat and is vented properly; therefore, I can vent this extra furnace however I please.

I've already provided a compliant restroom in this design; therefore, this one can be laid out however I please.

That stairway is constructed per code; therefore, this stairway can be built however I please.

I could understand some of this ridiculousness coming from designers with a vendetta against codes in general or contractors looking for some "wiggle room" after a costly mistake, but I wouldn't expect it from knowledgable code enforcement professionals.

 

[brudgers]

but we are saying that a metal stair shaped thingy is not a stair, and therefore there are no non-compliance issues. Think of it as someone putting in a slide, which I actually did for a client. they had a perfectly compliant stair that served the second floor, and they had a gate at the top of the slide. Just cause the kids climbed back up the slide instead of taking the stairs didn't mean I neede to make the slide comply with stairs section of the code.

1:12 makes a pretty dull slide.

 

[brudgers]

Why have a stair at all from the second floor if the bedrooms have egress windows. Just use a slide they already have an MOE. Why make the stair comply if they have egress windows. cda said it taking that path of logic "lets just not call it house so long as there is a violation it doesn't need to meet any standard of the code since it really isn't a house" that just won't work its like have youre cake and eat it too.

I have two sheds. They're not non-compliant houses.

 

[brudgers]

These receptacles are in excess of the minimum required; therefore, I can wire them however I please. That furnace is capable of providing the minimum level of heat and is vented properly; therefore, I can vent this extra furnace however I please. I've already provided a compliant restroom in this design; therefore, this one can be laid out however I please. That stairway is constructed per code; therefore, this stairway can be built however I please. I could understand some of this ridiculousness coming from designers with a vendetta against codes in general or contractors looking for some "wiggle room" after a costly mistake, but I wouldn't expect it from knowledgable code enforcement professionals.

This reminds me of the plans examiner who insisted that every window in every bedroom must meet EERO dimensions. Again, the circular ladder is not a stair.

The slide isn't a ramp.

My two sheds are not houses.

And Abe was right, a horse only has four legs regardless of what you want to call its tail.

 

[permitguy]

NFPA 101 just what is it?

. . . says the designer with a vendetta against codes in general.

 

[jim baird]

A mute duck looks like a duck and waddles. Without a quack is it still one?

 

[gbhammer]

A mute duck looks like a duck and waddles. Without a quack is it still one?

Nope no way jim it's a shed. Sheds are mute and if you put one on skids in a 90 mph gust it even waddles.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I could understand some of this ridiculousness coming from designers with a vendetta against codes in general or contractors looking for some "wiggle room" after a costly mistake, but I wouldn't expect it from knowledgable code enforcement professionals.

In other words it is ridiculous to allow a secondary decorative stair, salvaged from an older home/building, which does not meet the current codes for a MOE stair? Does the code ever take this position with other MOE elements?

R311.4.2 Door type and size. The required exit door shall be a side hinged door not less than 3 feet in width and 6 feet 8 inches in height. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions.

I respectfully agree to disagree that this secondary decorative non-compliant stair is an albatross around my code enforcement neck, and can not some how be part of a reasonable approval assessement for alternative design as indicated in 104.11. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design...not specifically prescribed by this code.

Put a gate at the upper and lower landings that comply with the guard opening limitations, document it and move on.

 

[cda]

Now I have to take my firefighter slide pole out of my house!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.disneylies.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/dl_tour/dl_tour_450.jpg

 

[gbhammer]

Put a gate at the upper and lower landings that comply with the guard opening limitations, document it and move on.

Ok I would be good with that. Maybe just add a sign "DECORATIVE DEATH TRAP IN CASE OF FIRE" :devil

 

[permitguy]

In other words it is ridiculous to allow a secondary decorative stair, salvaged from an older home/building, which does not meet the current codes for a MOE stair?

Yep.

A skinny door is, at worst, inconvenient (provided a compliant door is present). The stair being described is quite a bit more than inconvenient. The code specifically says "other doors shall not be required to comply with these dimensions." Where is that language for stairways?

The OP said nothing about this spiral staircase being relocated from an older home/building. In any case, what is your stance on the antique, non-listed wood-burning stove being relocated? I guess that's okay, too? "We only vented it because we like the way the vent looks. It's art!" Fine. Just put a gate around it.

Let's call this what it is: knowingly giving in to a non-compliant installation because it isn't thought to be worth the hassle of making it right.

 

[brudgers]

Yep. A skinny door is, at worst, inconvenient (provided a compliant door is present). The stair being described is quite a bit more than inconvenient. The code specifically says "other doors shall not be required to comply with these dimensions." Where is that language for stairways? The OP said nothing about this spiral staircase being relocated from an older home/building. In any case, what is your stance on the antique, non-listed wood-burning stove being relocated? I guess that's okay, too? "We only vented it because we like the way the vent looks. It's art!" Fine. Just put a gate around it. Let's call this what it is: knowingly giving in to a non-compliant installation because it isn't thought to be worth the hassle of making it right.

Question: with a second means of escape from the second floor is the building more or less dangerous? Keep in mind that the code expects people to jump from the second or third floor in an emergency. It doesn't prohibit concrete below an EERO.

It doesn't even prohibit spikes below one.

If I call this what it is, Jeff may send me a PM.

But you can take an educated guess at what I would call this approach to the code.