• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Non ADA ramp

mwestfall

Registered User
Joined
Dec 7, 2023
Messages
3
Location
Dallas, TX
I am working on a small retail store with two entrances/exits but only one is required. The front door is on the accessible route and is ADA compliant. The back door has a 4" step down into the store. We would like to add a ramp but to save space, I'd like to make it smaller than what would be required by ADA. Would this be allowed or advisable? It is in Florida and I know they are strict with ADA.
 
I am working on a small retail store with two entrances/exits but only one is required. The front door is on the accessible route and is ADA compliant. The back door has a 4" step down into the store. We would like to add a ramp but to save space, I'd like to make it smaller than what would be required by ADA. Would this be allowed or advisable? It is in Florida and I know they are strict with ADA.
Is the "rear door" used by customers?
 
In California, I don't believe it would be required unless the building is new. Path of Travel Improvements for existing buildings are only required to the main entry and an accessible means of egress is not required to be provided (again, for existing buildings only). You'd have to put up a sign indicating the location of the accessible entrance and provide a level landing at the door, but that's it. Not sure how Florida code addresses this, but this would comply with the 2010 ADAS.

If it's a new building, then all entrances used by the public will need to be accessible.
 
Arwat, if they were not modifying the rear entry, you are correct, the primary entry is the only one that is required to be acessible.

However, when you do an alteration (such as adding a ramp where none existing before, that alteration has to comply:
1701975391835.png
 
Arwat, if they were not modifying the rear entry, you are correct, the primary entry is the only one that is required to be acessible.

However, when you do an alteration (such as adding a ramp where none existing before, that alteration has to comply:
View attachment 12206
That's correct. My bad, I misread the original post and didn't realize that they were adding a ramp regardless.
 
If the back entrance meets code as-is, don’t change it until after you get your final inspection and CofO. Tell the client … verbally, not in writing … they can add a ramp later when you are no longer involved in the project.
 
The rear door may not be the designated accessible entrance and it may not be a designated accessible means of egress, but it is there, customers do use it, so it is "a" means of egress. As a component in a means of egress, it is regulated by chapter 10, not chapter 11.

Florida:

1012.1 Scope


The provisions of this section shall apply to ramps used as a component of a means of egress.

1012.2 Slope


Ramps used as part of a means of egress shall have a running slope not steeper than one unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (8-percent slope). The slope of other pedestrian ramps shall not be steeper than one unit vertical in eight units horizontal (12.5-percent slope).
 
Sometimes a little less than perfect is good enough and the benefit can be worth it.

But what was proposed is also not compliant with the code. Advising a client to wait until after the final inspection to perform regulated work without a permit so they can violate the code without being caught is reprehensible.

And it's a disservice to the client. I have been an expert witness in slip/fall cases involving non-compliant ramps (I have been involved as a code consultant, on both the plaintiff's side and the property owner's side, but obviously not in the same case), so I know that non-compliant ramps are a hazard. All it will take is for one person to fall on the non-compliant ramp, and some expert witness like me will show up, take measurements, figure out that it doesn't meet code, and then the lawyers will figure out that it was installed with no permit and no inspections, and the owner will be on the hook for damages.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But what was proposed is also not compliant with the code. Advising a client to wait until after the final inspection to perform regulated work without a permit so they can violate the code without being caught is reprehensible.

And it's a disservice to the client. I have been an expert witness in slip/fall cases involving non-compliant ramps (I have been involved as a code consultant, on both the plaintiff's side and the property owner's side, but obviously not in the same case), so I know that non-compliant ramps are a hazard. All it will take is for one person to fall on the non-compliant ramp, and some expert witness like me will show up, take measurements, figure out that it doesn't meet code, and then the lawyers will figure out that it was installed with no permit and no inspections, and the owner will be on the hook for damages.
You might be right or you might be wrong. How out of code is the ramp? Is it a little too steep? A little too narrow? The ramp that’s part of this thread is to eliminate a 4” change of elevation. Merely a lack of permit or inspections doesn’t convince me that there is an issue…. There needs to be some egregious deficiency before I would side with a plaintiff. I am reminded of the serial ADA plaintiffs. They can screw you just because they can screw you.

Unprofessional, irresponsible and reprehensible are words usually reserved for things that I have done… not a trifling 4” high ramp.

If you notice that a moderator edited your post.. that was me. I thought that I was in my post and added a sentence to yours by mistake…I removed it.
 
Last edited:
You might be right or you might be wrong. How out of code is the ramp? Is it a little too steep? A little too narrow? The ramp that’s part of this thread is to eliminate a 4” change of elevation. Merely a lack of permit or inspections doesn’t convince me that there is an issue…. There needs to be some egregious deficiency before I would side with a plaintiff. I am reminded of the serial ADA plaintiffs. They can screw you just because they can screw you.

Unprofessional, irresponsible and reprehensible are words usually reserved for things that I have done… not a trifling 4” high ramp.

If you notice that a moderator edited your post.. that was me. I thought that I was in my post and added a sentence to yours by mistake…I removed it.

What the original post said was:

We would like to add a ramp but to save space, I'd like to make it smaller than what would be required by ADA.

The maximum ramp slope of 1:12 allowed for ramps in chapter 10 (for means of egress) is the same as the maximum slope allowed under the ADA and A117.1 for accessibility. A 4 inch rise requires a 4-foot long ramp. Deliberately making it shorter (and thereby steeper than allowed) isn't in conformance with the code. Doing it intentionally, knowing it's not allowed by code, is what I consider unprofessional.

Once you cross the line into "not allowed" territory, at what point does the violation because "egregious"? Remember, the 1:12 slope isn't a hard number. It's a maximum number, like a speed limit. Just as the motor vehicle laws allow you to drive 40 MPH in a 50 MPH zone, the code also allows you to build a ramp with a slope of 1:13 or 1:15 and still be code compliant. But 1:11.5 is NOT code compliant.
 
So here’s the deal YC. e hilton mentioned a way around a problem that I have used… and I am not unique in that. You don’t know the details other than a ramp shorter than code compliant. You don’t know how much shorter. You don’t know if shorter than code compliant is even a hazard. All you know is that it’s not perfect. There you went, guns a blazing, calling a long time, astute member unprofessional and irresponsible.

As I said, I’ve done it myself … for myself. I am a lot of things but reprehensible is not one of them.

You should try riding in on a shorter horse next time.
 
Last edited:
So here’s the deal YC. e hilton mentioned a way around a problem that I have used… and I am not unique in that. You don’t know the details other than a ramp shorter than code compliant. You don’t know how much shorter. You don’t know if shorter than code compliant is even a hazard. All you know is that it’s not perfect. There you went, guns a blazing, calling a long time, astute member unprofessional and irresponsible.

As I said, I’ve done it myself … for myself. I am a lot of things but reprehensible is not one of them.

You should try riding in on a shorter horse next time.

Please keep in mind that I am licensed as an architect as well as a building official, and please remember that I stated I have testified in slip/fall cases involving non-compliant ramps. They ARE a hazard. I stand by my statement -- for a design professional or a code official (I don't know which e hilton is) to suggest knowingly and intentionally circumventing an objective and clearly stated requirement of the code is, in my personal and professional opinion, reprehensible.
 
If the choice is between a single 4" step or a ramp - say 1:8 as allowed in assembly seating - the ramp is much safer. Single steps are killers and used to be (legacy codes) prohibited.
 
knowingly and intentionally circumventing an objective and clearly stated requirement of the code is, in my personal and professional opinion, reprehensible.
Thank you for your kind words from Mt Olympus and nirvana.

I was recently involved in remodeling a bank branch. The existing restrooms met the old ADA requirements but not the new ones. If we touched any part of them, we had to do a complete makeover. We marked them “not in scope” on the permit drawings. After the COO we went back and added a couple of grab bars that we thought they needed. I guess me and the whole project team are going to rot in hell.
 
If the choice is between a single 4" step or a ramp - say 1:8 as allowed in assembly seating - the ramp is much safer. Single steps are killers and used to be (legacy codes) prohibited.

But a rear entrance to a retail store is NOT assembly seating, so a 1:8 ramp is not allowed except by modification. In my state, that means applying to the state, which will only grant the modification if it is technically infeasible to construct a compliant ramp. In jurisdictions where the local building official is authorized to grant modifications, the criteria may be less strict.

That said -- two points. First, the building code is, by its own statement, the "minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety,
health and general welfare." Therefore, as soon as you say you want to do less than the code (the minimum standard for safety), you are saying "I want to make my building unsafe. How unsafe will you [Mr. Building Official] allow me to make it?"

Point two: I think most building officials know that we are licensed by the respective states for the purpose of promoting and ensuring safe buildings. You may not be aware that architects and professional engineers are licensed by the states for the same reason -- to ensure safe buildings. Licensing of design professionals is not for the purpose of ensuring beautiful buildings (you just have to look at some of the dreck designed by big name architects to know that), but for the purpose of ensuring safe buildings. And that is why I remain of the opinion that for either a code official or a design professional to suggest simply waiting until the building official to go away and then proceeding to construct a ramp that is -- by the code's own definition -- unsafe (below the minimum standard for safety) is unprofessional.

The system is supposed to be one of checks and balances. Design professionals are supposed to design buildings that comply with the code, and building officials and fire marshals are supposed to review the plans as a check to be sure the design professional(s) didn't miss something. I should never have to write a plan review that runs to eleven pages in length -- but I have. I have seen plan reviews from our state building inspector's office on state projects where the comments ran to twenty-plus pages. Some of the comments were questions or perhaps based on not understanding the drawings -- but not all twenty-plus pages can be dismissed as misunderstandings. It shows that design professionals aren't doing their job. If we as code officials also fail to do our job, the result is buildings that fall below the legal standard of meeting a minimum level of safety.

I don't want to leave my job knowing that I have ever knowingly allowed (or suggested, or advocated for) an unsafe condition.
 
Thank you for your kind words from Mt Olympus and nirvana.

I was recently involved in remodeling a bank branch. The existing restrooms met the old ADA requirements but not the new ones. If we touched any part of them, we had to do a complete makeover. We marked them “not in scope” on the permit drawings. After the COO we went back and added a couple of grab bars that we thought they needed. I guess me and the whole project team are going to rot in hell.

No, because one of the standards for accessibility has always been that a feature that was designed and constructed or altered to an earlier accessibility standard is never required to be altered again because the accessibility standards have changed.

ADA 2010:

§ 36.403 Alterations: Path of travel.
(a) General.
(1) An alteration that affects or could affect the usability of or access to an area of a
facility that contains a primary function shall be made so as to ensure that, to the
maximum extent feasible, the path of travel to the altered area and the restrooms,
telephones, and drinking fountains serving the altered area, are readily accessible to
and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs,
unless the cost and scope of such alterations is disproportionate to the cost of the
overall alteration.
(2) If a private entity has constructed or altered required elements of a path of travel
at a place of public accommodation or commercial facility in accordance with the
specifications in the 1991 Standards, the private entity is not required to retrofit such
elements to reflect the incremental changes in the 2010 Standards solely because of
an alteration to a primary function area served by that path of travel.
 
Last edited:
Top