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non separated uses with an R occupancy

Francis, the following response from the committee on Log #89 (Page 5) has me baffled:

The two model building codes’ mixed use building requirements (i.e. 2009 IBC Section 508 and 2009 NFPA 5000, , Section 6.2) adequately address this issue without the NFPA 13R Standard adding confusion. Simply put, under both of these model building codes, if the building contains mixed uses with residential where the occupancies are not separated in accordance with these building codes’ fire rated assemblies separation requirements [i.e. 2009 IBC Table 508.4 and 2009 NFPA 5000 Tables 6.2.4.1(a) & (b)], then NFPA 13R would not be permitted by the building code. However, if the separated occupancy requirements (i.e., 2009 IBC Section 508.4 and 2009 NFPA 5000 Section 6.2.4) are applied, then NFPA 13R requirements are applied to the residential occupancies and NFPA 13 requirements would apply to the other occupancies in the building. Accessory occupancies (i.e. those occupancies that are ancillary to the main occupancy of the building) in residential occupancies sprinklered in accordance with NFPA 13R are also adequately covered under the two model building codes (i.e., 2009 IBC Section 508.2 and 2009 NFPA 5000 Section 6.2.1.5).



The bold/underlined portion seems to indicate that NFPA considers fire barriers used to separate occupancies as sufficient separation to allow a mix of NFPA 13 and 13R systems in the same building. I've always been led to believe (by fire protection engineers who know way more about sprinkler systems than me) that only a fire wall would allow such a mix in a single structure. I don't see where the IBC (or NFPA 5000) clearly states that as the response seems to imply.
 
add and rephrase question

Yes it's saying the group R has to be separated by fire barriers in order to use 13R and the rest of the building sprinklered throughout accordance with section 903.2.8

This is where AHJ (me) get confused too.

Accessory occupancies (i.e. those occupancies that are ancillary to the main occupancy of the building) in residential occupancies sprinklered in accordance with NFPA 13R are also adequately covered under the two model building codes (i.e.' date=' 2009 IBC Section 508.2 and 2009 NFPA 5000 Section 6.2.1.5).[/font']
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In response to this a nonseparated mixed use from residential occupancies is not permitted except for accessory occupancy according to the 2012 IBC?

2009

508.2.4 Separation of occupancies. No separation is required between accessory occupancies and the main occupancy.

Exceptions:

1. Group H-2, H-3, H-4 and H-5 occupancies shall be separated from all other occupancies in accordance with :Next('./icod_ibc_2009_5_par061.htm')'>Section 508.4.

2. Incidental accessory occupancies required to be separated or protected by :Next('./icod_ibc_2009_5_par053.htm')'>Section 508.2.5.

3. Group I-1, R-1, R-2 and R-3 dwelling units and sleeping units shall be separated from other dwelling or sleeping units and from accessory occupancies contiguous to them in accordance with the requirements of :Next('./icod_ibc_2009_4_par455.htm')'>Section 420.

2012

508.3.3 Separation.

No separation is required between nonseparated occupancies.

Exceptions:

1. Group H-2, H-3, H-4 and H-5 occupancies shall be separated from all other occupancies in accordance with :Next('./icod_ibc_2012_5_par061.htm')'>Section 508.4.

2. Group I-1, R-1, R-2 and R-3 dwelling units and sleeping units shall be separated from other dwelling or sleeping units and from other occupancies contiguous to them in accordance with the requirements of :Next('./icod_ibc_2012_4_par489.htm')'>Section 420.
 
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Referenced Standards do not trump Code. Code trumps referenced standards.

Careful reading of Section 903, in IBC or IFC, will answer the question. The 13R can only be used in R Occupancies up tp 4 stories or 60" in height, and the horizontal separations only create separate fire areas, not separate buildings. Where the Code allows/requires a system throughout the building, horizontal separations are inadequate to allow the 13R/13 mix. That the standard allows it is all well and good, the Code does not.

[F] 903.2.8 Group R.

An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area.

A] 102.4 Referenced codes and standards.

The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.4.1 and 102.4.2.[A] 102.4.1 Conflicts.Where conflicts occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.

[A] 102.4.2 Provisions in referenced codes and standards.

Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject matter that is within the scope of this code or the International Codes listed in Section 101.4, the provisions of this code or the International Codes listed in Section 101.4, as applicable, shall take precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard.
 
JBI said:
Referenced Standards do not trump Code. Code trumps referenced standards. Careful reading of Section 903, in IBC or IFC, will answer the question. The 13R can only be used in R Occupancies up tp 4 stories or 60" in height, and the horizontal separations only create separate fire areas, not separate buildings. Where the Code allows/requires a system throughout the building, horizontal separations are inadequate to allow the 13R/13 mix. That the standard allows it is all well and good, the Code does not.

[F] 903.2.8 Group R.

An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area.

A] 102.4 Referenced codes and standards.

The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.4.1 and 102.4.2.[A] 102.4.1 Conflicts.Where conflicts occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.

[A] 102.4.2 Provisions in referenced codes and standards.

Where the extent of the reference to a referenced code or standard includes subject matter that is within the scope of this code or the International Codes listed in Section 101.4, the provisions of this code or the International Codes listed in Section 101.4, as applicable, shall take precedence over the provisions in the referenced code or standard.
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But you agree a fire wall would
 
JBI, sorry, but you haven't convinced me.Section 903.2.8, as you quoted, does not specify either a 13 or 13R (or 13D, for that matter) system--just "an automatic sprinkler system"--which means either a 13, 13R, or 13D system is permitted within the limitations established by each system's respective section in IBC Section 903.3.1. Additionally, the quoted section states "provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area," which means a sprinkler system (either a 13, 13R, or 13D system) is required throughout a building if it has within the building's exterior walls a fire area that is classified as a Group R occupancy--it doesn't mean that the entire building has to be a Group R, just that the presence of Group R occupancy within any building requires a sprinkler system throughout.The horizontal separation that I mentioned is not the typical horizontal assembly prescribed in Section 711 (2012 IBC), but a "horizontal building separation allowance" per Section 510.2 that creates "separate and distinct buildings" much like a fire wall. This is sometimes called "podium" or "pedestal" construction. Therefore, when Section 903.2.8 states "buildings," the "building" above the horizontal separation (only one is permitted above the first level) may have a 13R system if it is a Group R up to no more than 4 stories above the horizontal separation.The IBC gives no further direction on the mixing of NFPA 13 and 13R systems within a building. Neither do the NFPA standards within the text of the requirements. The only guidance on this matter is provided in the Annex of NFPA 13R, which revised the explanatory material regarding this issue in its 2013 edition (see image below).

View attachment 982

View attachment 982

/monthly_2014_01/572953d09fb47_NFPA13RExplanatoryMaterial.JPG.643e7715779f023f7bba11878d9ff3ab.JPG
 
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Ron, Go back and read 510.2 carefully. Among the provisions... Type IA construction is required, a 3 hour separation is required.

Though the OP did not list a construction type, a 2 hour horizontal assembly was indicated. Answer is still 'no can do'.
 
JBI, I think we're on two different tracks. Although I was trying to address retire09's situation, he wasn't clear on his specific situation, so I took the discussion on a path regarding the conditions when mixed 13 and 13R systems could be used. However, when retire09 did clarify his situation, I did state in a later post (#24) that retire09's situation, as he explained it, would not permit the use of a NFPA 13R system. Therefore, aside from retire09's specific situation, my comments regarding my position on the use of NFPA 13 and 13R systems still stand.
 
JBI said:
Ron, Go back and read 510.2 carefully. Among the provisions... Type IA construction is required, a 3 hour separation is required. Though the OP did not list a construction type, a 2 hour horizontal assembly was indicated. Answer is still 'no can do'.
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I would have to agree, no mix per the code. If you have or show a path thru the code I would like to see it.
 
Builder Bob said:
[F] 903.2.8 Group R. An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area.

Unfortunately, this 903.3 references both NFPA 13 and NFPA 13 R sprinkler system.
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Because nfpa 13r is good for only four floors of r???

Or a designer may just want to do a nfpa 13 system?
 
[F] 903.2.8 Group R.

An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area.

Unfortunately, this 903.3 references both NFPA 13 and NFPA 13 R sprinkler system.

cda said:
Because nfpa 13r is good for only four floors of r???Or a designer may just want to do a nfpa 13 system?
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Or because 903.3 includes all sub-sections of 903.3 which brings you to 903.3.1.1, 903.3.1.2 and 903.3.1.3?
 
JBI said:
[F] 903.2.8 Group R.

An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area.

Unfortunately, this 903.3 references both NFPA 13 and NFPA 13 R sprinkler system.

Just saying you can use a plain 13 or a R or a D, but once you go to that standard you have to use it within the scope of the standard
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1.1* Scope. This standard shall cover the design and installation

of automatic sprinkler systems for protection against fire

hazards in residential occupancies up to and including four

stories in height in buildings not exceeding 60 ft (18 m) in

height above grade plane.

NOTICE: An asterisk (*) following the number or letter

designating a paragraph indicates that explanatory material

on the paragraph can be found in Annex A.

excerpt: Annex

It is the intent of this standard that if NFPA13R is appropriate

for use, it be used throughout the entire building. It is

recognized that an accessory or incidental occupancy to the

operations of the residential occupancy might exist within

that residential occupancy.

Such accessory or incidental occupancy would be considered

part of the predominant (residental) occupancy and subject to

the provisions of the predominant (residental) occupancy by

6.1.14.2 of NFPA 101 and similar provisions in many local building

and fire codes. Use of NFPA13R throughout the entire building

in this case is allowed.

Where buildings are greater than four stories in height, or

where buildings are of mixed use where residential is not the

predominant occupancy, residential portions of such buildings

should be protected with residential or quick-response sprinklers

in accordance with 8.4.5 of NFPA 13. Other portions of such

buildings should be protected in accordance with NFPA 13.

Where buildings of mixed use can be totally separated so that the

residential portion is considered a separate building under the

local code, NFPA13R can be used in the residential portion while

NFPA13 is used in the rest of the building. Examples of accessory

occupancies found in NFPA 13R installations can include parking

garages/areas, community laundry rooms, clubhouses, exercise

facilities, tenant storage, and so forth.
 
How do you define this article? The crossed though text could not paste; edit the underlined text represents the crossed through text to be deleted from this article.

NFPA® 13R- 2013 Edition

Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Low-Rise Residential Occupancies

TIA Log No.: 1081

Reference: A.1.1

Comment Closing Date: January 25, 2013

Submitter: Roland Huggins, American Fire Sprinkler

www.nfpa.org/13R

1. Revise the fourth paragraph in A.1.1 to read as follows:

Where buildings are greater than four stories in height, or where buildings are of mixed use where residential is not the predominant occupancy, residential portions of such buildings should be protected with residential or quick-response sprinklers in accordance with 8.4.5 of NFPA 13. Other portions of such buildings should be protected in accordance with NFPA 13. Where buildings of mixed use can be totally separated so that the residential portion is considered a separate building under the local code, NFPA 13R can be used in the residential portion while NFPA 13 is used in the rest of the building. Examples of accessory occupancies found in NFPA 13R installations can include parking garages/areas, community laundry rooms, clubhouses, exercise facilities, tenant storage, and so forth.

Submitter’s Substantiation: This text was added to the annex in the 2002 ed. to address the issue of whether a single building could use both a full 13 and a 13R system in different portions of the building. As the deleted text states, the TC’s position was that they can’t be mixed unless the building is separated and classified as two buildings. In the 2013 cycle, there were multiple proposals and comments to explicitly state that both system types could not be used within a single building. See proposal\ 13R-5 and 6 and comments 13R – 5 / 6 / 7 / 51. All were rejected. The committee statements explicitly stated that a single building (either a separated, mixed-occupancy or a podium/pedestal facility) is allowed by the building codes to use a 13R system in the residential portions of the building and a 13 system in other portions of the building. This was a reversal of the previous position in recognition that for some situations, the building codes do allow using both systems within a single building. The problem is that the previous text was not deleted. Although new text is warranted, it seems that both NFPA 13 and NFPA 13R should address this issue as a coordinated effort. As such, the cleanest approach was simply to delete the identified text.

Emergency Nature: This qualifies as an emergency nature for two reasons (see Regs 5.3 a & b). Leaving the current text in the document creates an error and presents a conflict with the building codes.

source; NFPA News Vol. 16 No. 13 December 2012
 
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Got it; similar to accessibility the code says when and where the standard says how. Therefor it's the AHJ to determine if the R group is the predominant; low rise hotels (R mixed) and fire stations (B mixed) for example.
 
Francis Vineyard said:
How do you define this article? The crossed though text could not paste; edit the underlined text represents the crossed through text to be deleted from this article.NFPA® 13R- 2013 Edition

Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Low-Rise Residential Occupancies

TIA Log No.: 1081

Reference: A.1.1

Comment Closing Date: January 25, 2013

Submitter: Roland Huggins, American Fire Sprinkler

www.nfpa.org/13R

1. Revise the fourth paragraph in A.1.1 to read as follows:

Where buildings are greater than four stories in height, or where buildings are of mixed use where residential is not the predominant occupancy, residential portions of such buildings should be protected with residential or quick-response sprinklers in accordance with 8.4.5 of NFPA 13. Other portions of such buildings should be protected in accordance with NFPA 13. Where buildings of mixed use can be totally separated so that the residential portion is considered a separate building under the local code, NFPA 13R can be used in the residential portion while NFPA 13 is used in the rest of the building. Examples of accessory occupancies found in NFPA 13R installations can include parking garages/areas, community laundry rooms, clubhouses, exercise facilities, tenant storage, and so forth.

Submitter’s Substantiation: This text was added to the annex in the 2002 ed. to address the issue of whether a single building could use both a full 13 and a 13R system in different portions of the building. As the deleted text states, the TC’s position was that they can’t be mixed unless the building is separated and classified as two buildings. In the 2013 cycle, there were multiple proposals and comments to explicitly state that both system types could not be used within a single building. See proposal\ 13R-5 and 6 and comments 13R – 5 / 6 / 7 / 51. All were rejected. The committee statements explicitly stated that a single building (either a separated, mixed-occupancy or a podium/pedestal facility) is allowed by the building codes to use a 13R system in the residential portions of the building and a 13 system in other portions of the building. This was a reversal of the previous position in recognition that for some situations, the building codes do allow using both systems within a single building. The problem is that the previous text was not deleted. Although new text is warranted, it seems that both NFPA 13 and NFPA 13R should address this issue as a coordinated effort. As such, the cleanest approach was simply to delete the identified text.

Emergency Nature: This qualifies as an emergency nature for two reasons (see Regs 5.3 a & b). Leaving the current text in the document creates an error and presents a conflict with the building codes.

source; NFPA News Vol. 16 No. 13 December 2012
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A poor attempt to correct non-code based information that some code officials could take and misunderstand to be code.
 
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