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Occupancy Load of a Chuch Foyer

Papio Bldg Dept said:
We review each on a case by case basis and rely heavily on the RDP to assign the specific use/function of church foyer spaces per their design. Chapter 10 does not assign an occupant load based upon occupancy classification. Churches are not all the same, and their occupant loads are not necessarily easy to assign, especially in foyers. In my experience most catholic and apolostic congregations (circulation only) use their foyer spaces much differently than evangelical and ecumenical congregations (assembly/gatherings/social areas). Some even use their spaces for 48 hour lock-ins, which involve sleeping and could potentially lead to other code requirements. If the RDP wants to assign a 1/5sf occupant load to that area, we will gladly accept it, as this is the most restrictive. On the other hand, if they want to show these areas as a different use/function, with a lower occupant load per square footage, they need to provide us with sufficient documentation to satisfy the reduced occupant load option in Chapter 10(e.g. letter of operations signed by owner/operator).
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When you accept something less than 1/5 sf, how do you prohibit back to back services...or transfer of the property to people with different worship practices or just hiring a different minsiter?
 
"ZERO" - Non Simultaneous occupancy - does anyone understand the meaning of

"NET"

"OCCUPIED AREA"

so what would the occupant load of the aisles be = ZERO

same thing for the restrooms while building is occupied = ZERO

Every seat has an A** that is the NET OCCUPANT LOAD -

IF the exits can support additional occupants on everybody shows up Easter / Christmas / BINGO

then at the owners choice they could declare an increaed occupant load

Just my opinion based on definition
 
mark handler said:
So with that in mind, all projects should be designed as an H occupancy, just in case......
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Change of use might trigger a new CO. On the other hand, changes to a congregation would probably not.
 
Architect1281 said:
"ZERO" - Non Simultaneous occupancy - does anyone understand the meaning of "NET" "OCCUPIED AREA" so what would the occupant load of the aisles be = ZERO same thing for the restrooms while building is occupied = ZERO Every seat has an A** that is the NET OCCUPANT LOAD - IF the exits can support additional occupants on everybody shows up Easter / Christmas / BINGO then at the owners choice they could declare an increaed occupant load Just my opinion based on definition
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Without fixed seating, the aisles are considered occupied. If they provide pews in the foyer, they can use them for the occupant load.

Otherwise, it's standing room.

And if you talk to the Deacon, that's how they probably expect to use it.
 
brudgers said:
Change of use might trigger a new CO. On the other hand, changes to a congregation would probably not.
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A change of use that increases an occupant load, or becomes a more restrictive occupancy will always trigger a new CO because it is a change of occupancy (either type or load)...if we are aware of it.

We do not employ Tom Cruise to look into future minority reports for occupant load code violations, and if the only way I can approve a set of plans is to require a 1 occupant per 5 sf design based upon anticipated use and owner changes, I wouldn't approve very many plans.

When the tail wags the dog, do you assign 1:5 for daycares that clear out their play rooms for an annual music performance with standing room only for parents and family?
 
$ *

I wonder if " joetheinspector " obtained the answer he was looking for.

Interesting discussion though...

= +
 
Thanks to all that chimed in on this. Of course as usual I think the answer is it depends.

In this case I think that most of the Foyer needs to be figured at 5 per person.

This is truly a great forum and it makes us all better code officials.

Thanks again.
 
Agree with the 1:5 in most cases. Possbile 1:7 on accasion, but rarely. I would never consider anything less than 1:7. Much better to have one exit door too many than one exit door too few.
 
Agree with the 1:5 in most cases. Possbile 1:7 on occasion (spelling), but rarely. I would never consider anything less than 1:7. Much better to have one exit door too many than one exit door too few.
 
Darren Emery said:
Agreed. We are currently expanding our facility - specifically to gain more foyer space. It gets absolutely packed in there between services. And not just for a few minutes - no one wants to leave (great problem to have!)
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SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary????????

The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp) :)
 
Architect1281 said:
SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary???????? The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp) :)
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Sooo... a reasonable approach might be to make sure there is exiting for 5 sq ft per in the foyer...but maybe not add that load to the total...some number less than that for total as to make everyone comfortable....it can get abused certainly (I have seen it) post the load, and it becomes a FM enforcement issue....unfortunately....
 
Architect1281 said:
SO after the service how many are still in the Sanctuary???????? The building Occupant Load does not need to count me multiple times - I'd like them to it makes me feel more impotent. (sp) :)
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Yep, you count the load of the worship space once and then add it to the standing room capacity of the foyer once.
 
steveray said:
Sooo... a reasonable approach might be to make sure there is exiting for 5 sq ft per in the foyer...but maybe not add that load to the total...some number less than that for total as to make everyone comfortable....it can get abused certainly (I have seen it) post the load, and it becomes a FM enforcement issue....unfortunately....
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On what code basis do you ignore simultaneous occupancy?
 
What I find amazing about this thread is that some of the same people who get worried about bushes outside a bedroom window, will ignore a hundred and fifty people in an assembly occupancy.
 
We must remember that if the church is like mine where a foyer to the Nave is the primary MOE access, one better figure a OL for it for additional secondary exits requirements as applicable. Don't know about you all but I've been to a few funerals where all posted OL's have been exceeded in many a church. Oh BTW I would be using 1/5 also as we applied to our church with (3) MOE from the Sanctuary.
 
brudgers said:
What I find amazing about this thread is that some of the same people who get worried about bushes outside a bedroom window, will ignore a hundred and fifty people in an assembly occupancy.
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I don't know that I would say that it is all that amazing... While Table 1004.1.1 does not have a function of space listing for foyers or corridors, in effect, it is silent on those spaces, yet you persist to assign a logical and reasonable assumption that these spaces may also function as assembly spaces in an overflow situation per 1004.1.1. "Where an INTENDED use is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the building official (not the brudgers) shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use. Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or buildng is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load."

What I do find amazing is that you did not read, or understand my post in this thread. For the record, I do not disagree that some of these foyer/lobby/widened corridor spaces can be used for simultaneous assembly occupancy/function, and should be assigned/designed as a 1/5 ratio, I do not see it as an absolute for all assembly spaces, or all churches.

There are two foyers at my church. One is 200 sf maximum has never had simulataneous occupancy even during lenten services, as it serves only as a cueing entrance while the congregation is welcomed by ushers. The other foyer is closer to 600 sf is often simultaneously occupied during the second 1030 service, and is clearly used as an assembly space with a mixture of tables and chairs and standing spaces. These assembly areas should be assigned at their various assembly occupant loads from 1:5 through 1:15, eventhough it may be recommended they use a 1:5 should they wish to remove the seating and tables.

Pretty amazing and shocking stuff huh brudgers? I can hardly believe how bad of a person I am. ;)
 
Your 200 sf space has people standing

That's forty occupants.

Probably in the middle of the MOE from the main sanctuary to boot.

If they never hold a wedding, funeral, baptism, old folks day, clergy installation, or guest speaker at your church...

I'll purchase your logic.
 
...okay, I will nible.

Why then, if we are to be concerned with potential assembly areas, is a covered mall occupant load not required to be less than 30 (IBC 402.4.1.1)? Clearly, there has never been an assembly gathering for a performance at a covered mall, probably in the middle of the MOE? Even the proverbial "Santy Clause on tinsel town mountain where little Ralphy will dig deep to ask for the rifle action red ryder bb gun" gathering every winter's solstice is simultaneous to the black friday culture of maximum shopping and would certainly be cause for an exception to the rule. Yet, where are the 1:5 ratios? Only Food Courts need go that low.

Do not waiver in your claim that accessory areas used for circulation, and potentiall for standing room assembly functions should be calculated at a 1:5 ratio also. Stand tall and righteous for potential simultaneous assembly occupancy and I will continue my titanic fail for emergency egress.
 
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