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Open or closed system 95% alcohol

TheCommish

Sawhorse
Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
1,216
Location
Charlton Ma
Clearly an open process would be a dip tank.
On the other end; a closed process would not have ventilation open to the atmosphere in the building.

So in a distillery, the transfer of 95% alcohol from the still to a wooden barrels or 55 gallon drum through the bung hole, is this an open or closed system?

2015 IBC From chapter 3
[F] 307.5 High-hazard Group H-3. Buildings and structures containing materials that readily support combustion or that pose a physical hazard shall be classified as Group H-3. Such materials shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
Class I, II or IIIA flammable or combustible liquids that are used or stored in normally closed containers or systems pressurized at 15 pounds per square inch gauge (103.4 kPa) or less.

[F] 307.4 High-hazard Group H-2. Buildings and structures containing materials that pose a deflagration hazard or a hazard from accelerated burning shall be classified as Group H-2. Such materials shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
Class I, II or IIIA flammable or combustible liquids that are used or stored in normally open containers or systems, or in closed containers or systems pressurized at more than 15 pounds per square inch gauge (103.4kPa).

2015 IBC commentary Chapter 2 Definitions
CLOSED SYSTEM. The use of a solid or liquid hazardous material involving a closed vessel or system that remains closed during normal operations where vapors emitted by the product are not liberated outside of the vessel or system and
the product is not exposed to the atmosphere during normal operations; and all uses of compressed gases. Examples of closed systems for solids and liquids include product conveyed through a piping system into a closed vessel, system or
piece of equipment.

❖ The difference between a closed system and an open system is whether the hazardous material involved in the process is exposed to the atmosphere. While not specific in the definition, certain gases are also allowed in closed systems, as indicated in Tables
307.7(1) and 307.7(2). Materials in closed or open systems are assumed to be "in use" as opposed to "in storage." Gases are always assumed to be in closed systems, since they would be immediately dispersed in an open system if exposed to the atmosphere without
some means of containment (see the definition of "Open system").

[F] OPEN SYSTEM. The use of a solid or liquid hazardous material involving a vessel or system that is continuously open to the atmosphere during normal operations and where vapors are liberated, or the product is exposed to the atmosphere
during normal operations. Examples of open systems for solids and liquids include dispensing from or into open beakers or containers, dip tank and plating tank operations. ❖ Seethe commentary to the definition of "Closed system."
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
19,670
Location
Basement
Cleary an open process would be a dip tank.
On the other end; a closed process would not have ventilation open to the atmosphere in the building.

So in a distillery, the transfer of 95% alcohol from the still to a wooden barrels or 55 gallon drum through the bung hole, is this an open or closed system?

2015 IBC From chapter 3
[F] 307.5 High-hazard Group H-3. Buildings and structures containing materials that readily support combustion or that pose a physical hazard shall be classified as Group H-3. Such materials shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
Class I, II or IIIA flammable or combustible liquids that are used or stored in normally closed containers or systems pressurized at 15 pounds per square inch gauge (103.4 kPa) or less.

[F] 307.4 High-hazard Group H-2. Buildings and structures containing materials that pose a deflagration hazard or a hazard from accelerated burning shall be classified as Group H-2. Such materials shall include, but not be limited to, the following:
Class I, II or IIIA flammable or combustible liquids that are used or stored in normally open containers or systems, or in closed containers or systems pressurized at more than 15 pounds per square inch gauge (103.4kPa).

2015 IBC commentary Chapter 2 Definitions
CLOSED SYSTEM. The use of a solid or liquid hazardous material involving a closed vessel or system that remains closed during normal operations where vapors emitted by the product are not liberated outside of the vessel or system and
the product is not exposed to the atmosphere during normal operations; and all uses of compressed gases. Examples of closed systems for solids and liquids include product conveyed through a piping system into a closed vessel, system or
piece of equipment.

❖ The difference between a closed system and an open system is whether the hazardous material involved in the process is exposed to the atmosphere. While not specific in the definition, certain gases are also allowed in closed systems, as indicated in Tables
307.7(1) and 307.7(2). Materials in closed or open systems are assumed to be "in use" as opposed to "in storage." Gases are always assumed to be in closed systems, since they would be immediately dispersed in an open system if exposed to the atmosphere without
some means of containment (see the definition of "Open system").

[F] OPEN SYSTEM. The use of a solid or liquid hazardous material involving a vessel or system that is continuously open to the atmosphere during normal operations and where vapors are liberated, or the product is exposed to the atmosphere
during normal operations. Examples of open systems for solids and liquids include dispensing from or into open beakers or containers, dip tank and plating tank operations. ❖ Seethe commentary to the definition of "Closed system."

So they are just tipping the alcohol barrel and just allowing free splash into the container??????

Not allowed.

If using a UL approved pump and hose. I think that is close to Closed
 

TheCommish

Sawhorse
Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
1,216
Location
Charlton Ma
So they are just tipping the alcohol barrel and just allowing free splash into the container??????

Not allowed.

If using a UL approved pump and hose. I think that is close to Closed
pump and hose from the distillation process into a tank, I am thinking like a food grade gas station nozzle into the wooden aging barrel or 55 gallon drum
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
19,670
Location
Basement
Did not read thru this

 

Insurance Engineer

Registered User
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
328
Location
Northeast
More info here from an insurance side FM Data Sheet 7-74 DISTILLERIES. FM Data Sheets are free just need to register with FM. Great resource and detailed information on many things. Can not you for enforcement but a good read to educate yourself on many hazards.
 

Insurance Engineer

Registered User
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
328
Location
Northeast
FM also let’s you know if they have any conflict with NFPA, see below from the 7-74 data sheet noted above.


APPENDIX D NFPA STANDARDS
There is no NFPA standard dealing specifically with distilleries. There are no known conflicts with related NFPA standards except for the tank venting change which previously was consistent with NFPA 30.
 

TheCommish

Sawhorse
Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
1,216
Location
Charlton Ma
Than you all for the information and private messages, I have posed the question back to the design team for further review and justification. stay tuned
 
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