Panic Hardware on Bronze Doors

[LGreene]

Not to stir up more trouble, but how about these? ;-)The AHJ required the flower box to be painted over so the panic hardware was visible. I'm not sure about the fire truck, but it has another problem which is that there is an exit alarm in addition to the panic. Without a specific code requirement about visibility it's difficult to know what's going to be acceptable and what's not. I know these are extreme examples, but there's a whole lot of grey.

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[imhotep]

Not to stir up more trouble, but how about these? ;-)The AHJ required the flower box to be painted over so the panic hardware was visible. I'm not sure about the fire truck, but it has another problem which is that there is an exit alarm in addition to the panic. Without a specific code requirement about visibility it's difficult to know what's going to be acceptable and what's not. I know these are extreme examples, but there's a whole lot of grey.

Those are great examples of the grey pages. Thank you.

 

[FM William Burns]

If a person is visually, spacial or color impaired does it matter what color the door hardware may be?

Not as long as a person can discern that the block they are looking at is recongnized as a door. I believe the issue is what we see happening is stretching or going further then the intent for existing regulations associated to visual obstructions in the MOE as someone earlier alluded to.

but the exit sign above that door is what would lead you to it not the hardware on the door.

Agree but personally I consider the sign, door, hardware and access all as functioning parts of the MOE and as some refer..... system. Lighting, furnishings and decorations do however create visual obstructions in the MOE and are therefore regulated and these instances as discovered leave some with varying interpretations as to obstructions and may possibly be in need of further clairification in the code.....in my humble opinion.

Lori,

I would have issues with the recent photos (flower pot and engine mural) and would cite both instances if in our jurisdiction.

 

[JBI]

Gotta agree with FM on the last two. Cute but visually obstructed. On the OP it is always going to be the AHJ's call. As long as the AHJ is reasonable and consistent there should be no issue.

Ron Geren - Try your home States' Building and Fire Code Division (by whatever name they go) and ask if they have the standard. Often it can be FOILed as it is a part of the regulations by reference.

 

[tbz]

Mirrors or similar reflecting materials shall not be used on means of egress doors. Section 1008.1. It sure seeems to me that bronze doors would constitute a reflecting surface, unless perhaps they were brushed bronze. I don't think I have ever seen that.

The majority of bronze repousse doors like in the rendering would be a multi forum of non-high polish. The scratch lines in the rendering are A typical to satin finishes by designers. The color difference in the panels would also show offset in color over time.

The difference IMO between the OP door rendering and the fire truck/flower box doors is that the hardware was specifically targeted to vanish as is not the case in the OP.

FM,

Per your daily job you look beyond sign & door outline, to the masses until they reach or almost reach the door the hardware is just a trained position and until they don't find the hardware there it never really enters their mind, so being in place and working is 99% IMO.

The same goes for handrails, our bodies when falling just react to were we are trained to find them through daily use. It is only when they are not there that the real problem begins.

 

[LGreene]

I don't think the bronze doors are reflective, but the original question from the architect was whether it was ok to put a thin sheet of the same bronze material on the panic hardware so the hardware would look exactly like the doors except that it would project an inch or an inch and a half off the face of the door.

I agree with some of you that the likelihood of these doors causing an egress problem is minimal since the devices will typically be dogged (not latched) when the room is in use, but it's difficult for designers and door/hardware suppliers to make a definitive decision on applications like this because the AHJ will have the final say. As we have seen in this discussion, some AHJs would have a problem with the design and some would not. And even though there isn't a code requirement that could be cited, an AHJ may require something that is not in the codes if he/she perceives it as a hazardous situation.

I appreciate everyone's input! I'm checking out UL305 but I don't think it contains anything about this issue. I will let you know.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I don't think the bronze doors are reflective, but the original question from the architect was whether it was ok to put a thin sheet of the same bronze material on the panic hardware so the hardware would look exactly like the doors except that it would project an inch or an inch and a half off the face of the door.

Based upon your OP, I still have a question concerning balanced doors with the panic bar. For these doors, the panic bar is limited to one half the door width measured on the latch side. Is there a reason this is the case? Is it to prevent people with learned behavior from pushing on the non-latch side of the door? If this is the case, I would probably not approve the bronze application to the panic hardware in this case.

 

[Mule]

Would occupants know that the panic hardware that is proposed is installed for egress purposes? Or would it blend in and the occupants would not know that the hardware is supposed to be "pushed"?

People are creatures of habit. I know if I don't see any type of hardware on a door I don't push where it should be. I push the door at about shoulder height.

Look at all the stains on doors without hardware. They are not where the panic hardware would be installed.

If they were trying to install this type of hardware in our jurisdiction, I would have to say no!

 

[FM William Burns]

FM,Per your daily job you look beyond sign & door outline,

Why yes I do! When I exit an assembly room or enter other applicable areas, corridors or areas where I evaluate common pathes, remoteness and locking arrangements, I try to notice any type of visual obstruction in accordance with:

NFPA 101, 2012

7.1.10.2.1

No furnishings, decorations, or other objects shall obstruct exits or their access thereto, egress therefrom, or visibility thereof.

7.2.1.1.2

Every door opening and every principal entrance that is required to serve as an exit shall be designed and constructed so that the path of egress travel is obvious and direct.

 

[Builder Bob]

Would occupants know that the panic hardware that is proposed is installed for egress purposes? Or would it blend in and the occupants would not know that the hardware is supposed to be "pushed"?People are creatures of habit. I know if I don't see any type of hardware on a door I don't push where it should be. I push the door at about shoulder height.

Look at all the stains on doors without hardware. They are not where the panic hardware would be installed.

If they were trying to install this type of hardware in our jurisdiction, I would have to say no!

My answer would be no.....until the complete assembly is sent to a third party location for testing, The manufacture may state that the attachment of the finish is ok, however the entire assembly as presented may or may not meet the third party certification for the entire assembly.

 

[tbz]

I don't think the bronze doors are reflective, but the original question from the architect was whether it was ok to put a thin sheet of the same bronze material on the panic hardware so the hardware would look exactly like the doors except that it would project an inch or an inch and a half off the face of the door.

From my perspective as a fabricator, the rendering shows Multi sized squares and rectangles of different shades and grain direction with 2 long slender rectangles were the door exit/panic hardware is required by code.

LG, I don't believe from the rendering that it is the designers intent for the hardware to be non visible, but rather to be of the same material so that the shading of the blocks is in the family.

We have fabricated many a door with these types of patterns in bronze the intent is for the off grain directional lines, patina and black "grout" lines to form a very distinct pattern.

The hardware paddles/bars would be accented just like in the rendering, it is that off the shelf hardware does not exist that looks like the concept rendering and would detract from the doors design.

As to enclosing the hardware on the door with a cover, I would have the designer contact UL on that question.

The device is still a UL device, how does adding a cover that moves the top change it's rating. I believe they are the only ones that could answer that.

 

[permitguy]

Based upon your OP, I still have a question concerning balanced doors with the panic bar. For these doors, the panic bar is limited to one half the door width measured on the latch side. Is there a reason this is the case? Is it to prevent people with learned behavior from pushing on the non-latch side of the door?

That is the case. With balanced doors, the pivot point isn't on the edge of the door as it is with a traditionally hinged door. The force needs to be applied more directly towards the latch side in order for it to open.

Are the doors in the OP balanced doors? I didn't see information on that. I'm not sure what difference it makes in terms of contasting hardware color.

 

[Mac]

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tags around selected text Spell Check I am not inclined to accept the pictured "Alpha Omega" door & hardware as shown. I's just not identifiable as a door (let alone an exit) clearly enough for me.

In an emergency, with smoke in the air and the alarms & strobes activated, people will be disoriented enough. My preference would be a contrasting color for the hardware.

 

[Msradell]

I am not inclined to accept the pictured "Alpha Omega" door & hardware as shown. I's just not identifiable as a door (let alone an exit) clearly enough for me. In an emergency, with smoke in the air and the alarms & strobes activated, people will be disoriented enough. My preference would be a contrasting color for the hardware.

I would agree with you but once you add the required exit sign it certainly changes the picture in my opinion. Everyone is trained instinctively to look for the exit sign(s) in case of emergency. Very few if any worry about the color of the doors.

 

[Architect1281]

yeah you would want that contrasting color NOT

If a Blind individual can find it why not the sighted?????

Pamic bars are required TO FUNCTION

 

[LGreene]

PermitGuy: These aren't balanced doors...I think someone was just using the balanced door example to make a point about the hardware.

Papio Bldg Dept: If a crossbar style panic device that runs all the way across the door is used on a balanced door, then someone pushing on the end of the device closest to the hinge edge would not be able to open the door. The pivot point of a balanced door is not at the edge, so you have to push on the other end to operate it. It's pretty hard to open a regular door if you're pushing on the "wrong" end of the panic device too, but only balanced doors are currently addressed in the code when it comes to that issue.

tbz: The intent of cladding the panics in a thin sheet of bronze is so that the color and texture will be exactly the same as the rest of the door.

Thanks for your input all!

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

PermitGuy: These aren't balanced doors...I think someone was just using the balanced door example to make a point about the hardware. Papio Bldg Dept: If a crossbar style panic device that runs all the way across the door is used on a balanced door, then someone pushing on the end of the device closest to the hinge edge would not be able to open the door. The pivot point of a balanced door is not at the edge, so you have to push on the other end to operate it. It's pretty hard to open a regular door if you're pushing on the "wrong" end of the panic device too, but only balanced doors are currently addressed in the code when it comes to that issue.

Yes, I was trying to make the point that on a balanced door, if you conceal the side the panic bar, or make it difficult to determine which side it is on, you will get someone pushing on the wrong side, therefore my reasoning for not approving the application in the case of balanced doors.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

yeah you would want that contrasting color NOT If a Blind individual can find it why not the sighted?????

Pamic bars are required TO FUNCTION

So you are saying they don't function if you don't push on them, or NOT?

 

[gbhammer]

The door needs to be recognizable as a door the hardware will be hit by one, twenty or a hundred trying to get out.

 

[icondrive]

There are a lot of range hoods over the internet, with a big number of producers offering them on the net. Once you’ve a solid idea of how you would like your brand-new kitchen range hood to look like, you have to think about what’s under the hood and just how it will perform inside your house. If you purchase the incorrect model, it could be a serious pricey mistake to make.| A lot of people often shop for a hood that they like the design of without thinking about whether or not this may fit into their house

 

[Mac]

"The door needs to be recognizable as a door the hardware will be hit by one, twenty or a hundred trying to get out. "

That is what I meant, not necessarily that the hardware needed to be a contrasting finish. The design and finish of the doors is somewhat less "recognizable as doors.(1008.1)"