TimNY
SILVER MEMBER
Who puts a pull handle on a door labeled "Push" to open anyway..FyrBldgGuy said:
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Panic Hardware
- Thread starter agb4
- Start date
LGreene
SILVER MEMBER
Lots of architects want to see back-to-back pulls. I think that's confusing, but I guess it's acceptable unless the door requires a panic.
Do I have statistics to back up the postulate that if a building is on fire, a person would head for a door that was very close to them rather than one that was very far away from them?
No, sorry, you got me there... I guess we'll just have to call it AWAG...
Hey, while we're chatting, why does your dog have your dentures in his mouth?
No, sorry, you got me there... I guess we'll just have to call it AWAG...
Hey, while we're chatting, why does your dog have your dentures in his mouth?
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Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
1011.1 requires all exits to have exit signs. (does not say required exits)
1002 definition of exit includes doors at ground level. (does not say required doors)
One exception might apply to this room if it only requires one exit.
This also includes tactile exit sign at each door, and don't forget the directional signs if not accessible at each door.
1002 definition of exit includes doors at ground level. (does not say required doors)
One exception might apply to this room if it only requires one exit.
This also includes tactile exit sign at each door, and don't forget the directional signs if not accessible at each door.
That's the problem with the ICC process. It's based on a bunch of guesses instead of actual experience.texasbo said:
Next time you're analyzing a life safety issue, I recommend Akin's 19th law of Space Craft design... http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
steveray
SAWHORSE
I think the "readily distinguishable" gives you the authority to make that call or push...texasbo said:
In this situation at least...JMHO
FyrBldgGuy
Silver Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
LGreene,
The doors were the main entrance/exit and next to them the non-exit doors. Those specific doors have motion sensors and open when someone approaches. After business hours the doors are locked and the adjacent doors meet the egress requirements.
The doors were the main entrance/exit and next to them the non-exit doors. Those specific doors have motion sensors and open when someone approaches. After business hours the doors are locked and the adjacent doors meet the egress requirements.
Gene Boecker
BRONZE MEMBER
Let's get back to the question about going to doors, finding them not usable as exits and then having to hunt for the actual exits.
If there are a lot of people in the space, then the doors that are operable as exits will be in use should the other doors (the non-exits) be locked. In that case, the answer is easy, follow the crowd! The people congregating at the exits are in the location of the exits. That is how people move (and yes there are studies to this effect - a very notable study performed in the 1960's which is the basis for much of the code language today. But I digress).
If there are only a few people in the space then they may need to hunt for a moment to find the exit but, the time it will take for the last person to leave the space is less than it would be if the room was fully occupied due to the lower occupant load. You can calculate the time it takes people to exit a space.
If there are doors that are not exits but lead to another space there is no need to put an exit sign there or a "NOT AN EXIT" sign there. The time it takes people to exit is regulated by the size and location of the complying exits. If there are additional doors provided for egress purposes, they are in excess of the minimum and must comply with the exit requirements (including the requirements for exit signage). If they lead to an office, the kitchen at the banquet hall or a storage area, they are not exits. If the door is open, people may try to go that way in a desperate condition but they are not exits.
Exit design in the codes is based on people movement and studies that have been done since before WWII.
And this is NOT based on a bunch of guesses and Ben attributes - having been on several of the ICC code development committees and testified at code change hearings since its inception (and then at the legacy codes before that). although I will readily admit that there are flaws in the process. But I digress once more. The code demands that we provide the MINIMUM number of exits and then design around them so they meet all the requirements for exits. If more are provided - great. Make them meet all the requirements too. But if something is not intended to be an exit, don't try to force it to be one by adding exit signs.
If there are a lot of people in the space, then the doors that are operable as exits will be in use should the other doors (the non-exits) be locked. In that case, the answer is easy, follow the crowd! The people congregating at the exits are in the location of the exits. That is how people move (and yes there are studies to this effect - a very notable study performed in the 1960's which is the basis for much of the code language today. But I digress).
If there are only a few people in the space then they may need to hunt for a moment to find the exit but, the time it will take for the last person to leave the space is less than it would be if the room was fully occupied due to the lower occupant load. You can calculate the time it takes people to exit a space.
If there are doors that are not exits but lead to another space there is no need to put an exit sign there or a "NOT AN EXIT" sign there. The time it takes people to exit is regulated by the size and location of the complying exits. If there are additional doors provided for egress purposes, they are in excess of the minimum and must comply with the exit requirements (including the requirements for exit signage). If they lead to an office, the kitchen at the banquet hall or a storage area, they are not exits. If the door is open, people may try to go that way in a desperate condition but they are not exits.
Exit design in the codes is based on people movement and studies that have been done since before WWII.
And this is NOT based on a bunch of guesses and Ben attributes - having been on several of the ICC code development committees and testified at code change hearings since its inception (and then at the legacy codes before that). although I will readily admit that there are flaws in the process. But I digress once more. The code demands that we provide the MINIMUM number of exits and then design around them so they meet all the requirements for exits. If more are provided - great. Make them meet all the requirements too. But if something is not intended to be an exit, don't try to force it to be one by adding exit signs.
cheyer
BRONZE MEMBER
Agree with Gene 100%.......well almost....
Bottom line is: "If there are additional doors provided for egress purposes, they are in excess of the minimum and must comply with the exit requirements (including the requirements for exit signage)."
But, in our California Fire Code, we do require : 1030.5 Nonexit identification. Where a door is adjacent to, constructed similar to and can be confused with a means of egress door, that door shall be identified with an approved sign that identifies the room name or use of the room.
It appears the opinions on this subject will diverge forever.........
Bottom line is: "If there are additional doors provided for egress purposes, they are in excess of the minimum and must comply with the exit requirements (including the requirements for exit signage)."
But, in our California Fire Code, we do require : 1030.5 Nonexit identification. Where a door is adjacent to, constructed similar to and can be confused with a means of egress door, that door shall be identified with an approved sign that identifies the room name or use of the room.
It appears the opinions on this subject will diverge forever.........
Exactly. Gene's analysis may be correct, but unfortunately, there's still the wording "when additional doors are provided for egress purposes", and that is where the debate ends up. It doesn't say "required egress". It just says "for egress purposes", and that leads it wide open to interpretation.
We have seen the completely fabricated interpretation that it is meant to apply when a pair of doors is required when only one is required; there is nothing in the code that says (or even implies) that. We have seen others who have said that any door whatsoever that is available to be used is required to comply as if it were a required exit door. I don't agree with that either.
Unfortunately, the language leaves it open, and until it's changed, as you said, opinions will diverge.
We have seen the completely fabricated interpretation that it is meant to apply when a pair of doors is required when only one is required; there is nothing in the code that says (or even implies) that. We have seen others who have said that any door whatsoever that is available to be used is required to comply as if it were a required exit door. I don't agree with that either.
Unfortunately, the language leaves it open, and until it's changed, as you said, opinions will diverge.
LGreene
SILVER MEMBER
How would you define "additional doors provided for egress purposes"? In the example from FyrBldgGuy, there were a multitude of doors of doors for light, ventilation, etc. Would these be considered additional doors provided for egress purposes because they go to the exterior?
I'm not trying to belabor this point, but this is one of the mysteries that the hardware industry struggles with, and I like to help clear those up to the extent that I can. I think most hardware consultants use the rule of thumb, "If it looks like an exit, it needs to allow egress,"...otherwise known as "If it looks like a duck..." But I think there are some common sense deviations from that rule. As an example, one of my projects had a bank of 8 pairs of doors. There was an operable pair at each end which had panic hardware, and there were other exits from the room as well. The other 6 pairs of doors did not have panic hardware - they had double-cylinder deadbolts and flush bolts, so that they could only be controlled by university personnel (open on nice-weather days, closed and locked the rest of the time).
Were the 6 extra pairs used for egress purposes? No (except on sunny days). Did they look like the exit doors? Well, they were the same style of door with the same glass-lite configuration, but they didn't have exit signs, panic hardware, or a clear exit path leading to them. As a hardware consultant, I don't make the final decisions on those questions - it's up to the architect and the code official to work that out. But in my opinion, changing the extra 6 pairs to panic hardware would have been a problem because the university wanted to hold the doors open on nice days. If the doors had panic hardware and hold-opens, anyone could open them and leave them open creating a security nightmare.
I guess the interpretation issue is how you define what looks like an exit door. Does a door with a double-cylinder deadlock and no exit sign look like a door with panic hardware and an exit sign? Does a goose look like a duck? Does a chicken?
I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic! Thanks!!
Gene Boecker
BRONZE MEMBER
Sure, its up to interpretation. I'd use the rule that is primarily based on exit signage. That is the one thing that is required for egress doors that is not a part of doors NOT associated with egress. You can put any hardware you like on doors that are not for egress but if you put up an exit sign you are advertising that as a way out. At that point they become "additional doors provided for egress purposes." In the case with the bank of doors, you can lock all of them except the ones advertised as exits.
LGreene
SILVER MEMBER
That seems too easy, Gene!