panic hardware

[permitguy]

Perhaps you should purchase a code book before further participation in this discussion.

Right, because if I have a 10x10 office, it's a code violation for me to let a visitor in (meaning that it never happens). Oh, and every cubicle layout allows 100 sf/occupant evenly distributed over the entire floor area of a story so there would never be a rush of >50 occupants getting to a door around the same time. Sorry, I almost forgot . . .

When people exit other occupancy groups during an emergency they do not all get to the door at the same time

That may usually be true, but not always, which is why there are valid points on both sides of the debate.

 

[cda]

"""Assembly and educational uses have large numbers grouped into small areas as brudgers was alluding too in a post"""

Yea my doughnut shop with 765 sq ft of dining and two exits does get crowded in the morning with 51 people

Like I said just throwing it out, just like other sections that are missing or should be deleted

 

[cda]

Where is Lori when you need some common sense?? Must be riding magic moutain still at Disney world

 

[LGreene]

I'm sitting in a giant assembly space with 200 other town meeting members, and several of the marked exits have a knob on one leaf and a cremone bolt on the other. I'd be thrilled just to see panics where they're required.

 

[Frank]

If grandpa can't open the lever handle at the bottom of the stairs then the same logic would say he could not open the lever handle to get out of his room or through the door of the exit enclosure to get into the stairs in the first place.Assembly and educational uses have large numbers grouped into small areas as brudgers was alluding too in a post

We need to recall the purpose of why we need panic hardware vs a lever handle controlled latch on the exit door--

In a crowd surge situation each person is pushing on the one in front that can result in considerable force on the people and door in front---if each of 100 people pushes 5 pounds you have a 500 pound force at the front.

If the door is being pushed on this load can keep the latch from disengaging due to binding of the bolt--at some force on the door the lever handle will break before the latch bolt moves to release the door--I observed this with sun warped rear doors at the back of a shopping center, southern facing doors had been painted dark brown on a hot day the thermal difference between the inside and the outside arched the doors to where the latch could not be disengaged even to the point of breaking the handle.

Panic hardware releases when pushed by people piling up against it eliminating this problem.

It still does not solve the problem of people getting jammed in the open door in a crowd surge situation such as occurred at The Station fire where there was a large mass of bodies piled up in the door blocking it--many of the nonfatal injuries were cuts and tears gotten when people were forcibly pulled from the pile by people outside.

Large merchantile occupancies can have crowd densities in the aisles during major shopping days that approximate assembly spaces--think Walmart on Black Friday. Fortunately most large retailers do not have latches on the front doors so panic hardware is not an issue.

 

[LGreene]

Here's a photo of the door in the assembly hall last night. The total occupant load capacity of this space is 1,792 (!), but that includes the second floor balcony seating which would not use this particular door. I forgot to mention the surface bolts top and bottom. Most of the other doors have surface bolts too. I hope we don't have an angry town resident come in to protest his tax increase and wreak havoc. View attachment 1339

View attachment 575

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/monthly_2012_05/572953c3e596f_AssemblyHallEgressPair-NoPanic.JPG.9419f7d3031f61fdfc44ac1ec4b9b9af.JPG

 

[Frank]

Here's a photo of the door in the assembly hall last night. The total occupant load capacity of this space is 1,792 (!), but that includes the second floor balcony seating which would not use this particular door. I forgot to mention the surface bolts top and bottom. Most of the other doors have surface bolts too. I hope we don't have an angry town resident come in to protest his tax increase and wreak havoc. View attachment 1339

I suspect that it was likely legal in 1902 when the building was built-- a scary example of grandfathering.

The later added surface bolts would be a violation though.

 

[LGreene]

I suspect that it was likely legal in 1902 when the building was built-- a scary example of grandfathering.The later added surface bolts would be a violation though.

These doors are just one example of grandfathering in this building, built in the 1920's. I don't think there's a fire-rated door in the place, at least not one that is code-compliant. Town Meeting just approved $50,000 for a sprinkler system design, but I don't know if we'll get approval for the $1M+ to actually install a sprinkler system. We have SO MANY buildings like this in the Northeast. This is a heavily-used building...most of our town offices are here, in addition to the giant assembly space.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Lori

Just a thought

Since it is a goverment building that is required to remove barriers (the round door knob) under the ADA then the only permitted hardware to be installed at that time would have to be code compliant (panic hardware)

Am I reaching to far here to get panic hardware on older assembly buildings?

 

[brudgers]

Right, because if I have a 10x10 office, it's a code violation for me to let a visitor in (meaning that it never happens). Oh, and every cubicle layout allows 100 sf/occupant evenly distributed over the entire floor area of a story so there would never be a rush of >50 occupants getting to a door around the same time.

If it's over 50, two exits are required. You can read about the difference between "net" and "gross" at wikitionary.

Sorry, I almost forgot . . .

I don't think you ever knew.

That may usually be true, but not always, which is why there are valid points on both sides of the debate.

Sorry but you're so uninformed that your points aren't valid.

 

[GBrackins]

Here's a photo of the door in the assembly hall last night. The total occupant load capacity of this space is 1,792 (!), but that includes the second floor balcony seating which would not use this particular door. I forgot to mention the surface bolts top and bottom. Most of the other doors have surface bolts too. I hope we don't have an angry town resident come in to protest his tax increase and wreak havoc. View attachment 1339

I'd just show the photo to the town administrator and ask him/her if they knew that in new assembly occupancies panic hardware was required and those bolts were not allowed. After they answered I'd comment on how this photo could make them famous should their ever be a fire and dead bodies were found piled up at a door they couldn't get out of.

When I make life safety suggestions and I get that "I don't have to, I'm grandfathered!" I tell them I wish I was, my grandfather died in a fire from a situation like this.

 

[cda]

I am glad I did not bring up "double swinging doors" and why that is not in the code!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GBrackins]

cda,

I though double swinging doors were required in an old west saloon .... ; ) just wouldn't be the same without 'em

sometimes people don't want to do the right thing especially if its not required by the code. sometimes you have to explain to them in a way that will get their attention. and I've always hated, probably like most on here that old excuse "I'm grandfathered."

 

[brudgers]

cda, I though double swinging doors were required in an old west saloon .... ; ) just wouldn't be the same without 'em sometimes people don't want to do the right thing especially if its not required by the code. sometimes you have to explain to them in a way that will get their attention. and I've always hated, probably like most on here that old excuse "I'm grandfathered."

Well grandpa ADA died in 1992.

 

[cda]

cda,I though double swinging doors were required in an old west saloon .... ; ) just wouldn't be the same without 'em

sometimes people don't want to do the right thing especially if its not required by the code. sometimes you have to explain to them in a way that will get their attention. and I've always hated, probably like most on here that old excuse "I'm grandfathered."

That is the Clint Eastwood section, so he could shoot them and they would fly out of the saloon and land half way in the street

 

[permitguy]

Sorry but you're so uninformed that your points aren't valid.

Since you're obviously either too inexperienced or too unimaginative to grasp the points being offered, perhaps you should quit typing and try to learn something. It's not my fault you've never seen the code compliant scenarios the rest of us are discussing.

 

[mjesse]

A reminder to all, PLEASE be civil.

We all have varying levels of knowledge, and we all have more to learn.

Please present your replies in a positive manner, hopefully explaining your viewpoint with reasoning instead of personal attacks.

mj