• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Party wall

I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have:

1. Building construction type IIIB

2. wall construction:

a. Exterior walls: Masonry Block and Brick + drywall on interior surface

b. Part walls between unit Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof

c. Interior walls are wood with drywall on both side

3. Occupant load
a. Table 1004.5 maximum floor area allowances per occupant
Residential 200 gross

b. Building gross area 4,600 SF/200SF = 23 occupants

c. Cluster gross area 27,600/200SF = 138 occupants

4. Fire protection systems:

a. Apartments in the buildings are not sprinkled

b. Only electrical rooms in buildings are sprinkled
 
Apurva Dave said:
I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have from engineer

1. Building construction type IIIB

2. wall construction:

a. Exterior walls: Masonry Block and Brick + drywall on interior surface

b. Party walls between unit Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof

c. Interior walls are wood with drywall on both side

3. Occupant load
a. Table 1004.5 maximum floor area allowances per occupant
Residential 200 gross

b. Building gross area 4,600 SF/200SF = 23 occupants

c. Cluster gross area 27,600/200SF = 138 occupants

4. Fire protection systems:

a. Apartments in the buildings are not sprinkled

b. Only electrical rooms in buildings are sprinkled
Click to expand...
Please see updated above
 
Apurva Dave said:
One has to look from NEC perspective since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.

so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service. Only NEC is involved here
Click to expand...
Read what the NEC Section 230.2 actually says: "A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service..."

It does not state that every building or structure must be supplied by one service. In other words, not every building is required to have a service, but if one is provided, no more than one service shall be provided. There are exceptions for additional services.

If every "building or other structure" must have a service, then storage sheds, structurally independent gazebos/canopies, freestanding carports, etc., would be required to have their own services if supplied with power.

As I understand the layout, the six clusters are served by one service and each cluster has its own branch line from that service, which is not considered a service; thus, NEC Section 230.3 is not violated. Each service is permitted six disconnect switches per NEC Section 230.71, which is probably why only six clusters are provided within the building.

However, per the additional information that you have provided, I understand that the gross floor area of each story for all six clusters is 9,200 sq. ft. (27,600 sq. ft. / 3 stories). A Group R-2 of Type IIIB construction, nonsprinklered, is allowed 16,000 sq. ft. per story. This means that the walls between the clusters are not required to be fire walls--only fire partitions--and the whole is-it-a-building-or-separate-buildings-for-electrical-service issue is moot.
 
No its not moot and I do need to know.

Once again all of you are Not understanding issue at hand. I have one electric service outside in switchboard outside that feeds Cluster 1,2. From the switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #3 Cluster #1 and from switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #6.

NEC 2014 Section 225 says only One feeder can feed the building. There is No exeption that applies here. No exception that applies here. If by building code bldg #1,2,3,4,5,6 in Cluster #1 are considered separate bulidngs then yea what is shown is allowed. Otherwise if its not considered separate bldgs and Cluster #1 is one whole building then only One feeder can feed the Cluster #1.

So please given the additional info is bldg #1 to bldg#6 considered separate buildings or not?
 
Apurva Dave said:
No its not moot and I do need to know.

Once again all of you are Not understanding issue at hand. I have one electric service outside in switchboard outside that feeds Cluster 1,2. From the switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #3 Cluster #1 and from switchboard I have two outside feeders feeding bldg #6.

NEC 2014 Section 225 says only One feeder can feed the building. There is No exeption that applies here. No exception that applies here. If by building code bldg #1,2,3,4,5,6 in Cluster #1 are considered separate bulidngs then yea what is shown is allowed. Otherwise if its not considered separate bldgs and Cluster #1 is one whole building then only One feeder can feed the Cluster #1.

So please given the additional info is bldg #1 to bldg#6 considered separate buildings or not?
Click to expand...
I just said they are not considered separate buildings--thus, the dwelling units only need only be separated by fire partitions and not fire walls. Therefore, #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6 can be considered ONE building.
 
RLGA said:
I just said they are not considered separate buildings--thus, the dwelling units only need only be separated by fire partitions and not fire walls. Therefore, #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6 can be considered ONE building.
Click to expand...
Post #27 item 2b says party wall. Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?
 
Apurva Dave said:
Post #27 item 2b says party wall. Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?
Click to expand...
Now we've come full circle. A party wall is a fire wall located on a lot line. If all portions of the buildings are on a single lot, then they are not party walls.
 
Apurva Dave said:
Post #27 item 2b says party wall. Is not party wall fire wall and would by building code be bldgs #1 to bldgs #6 be separate buildings?
Click to expand...
That I dont know if its on same lot or different.

Post#27 item 2b part Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof can that be considered fire wall by itself or not? If it is then would that not be seperate buildings bldgs #1 to bldgs #6?
 
A wall is only a fire wall if (1) it is needed to be a fire wall, and (2) meets all the requirements for a fire wall per IBC Section 706.

If it meets (2) but not (1), then it is not a fire wall. So, even though the walls may comply with the requirements for a fire wall, they do not need to be fire walls because the actual floor area of the building does not exceed that allowable floor area permitted by the building code.
 
RLGA said:
A wall is only a fire wall if (1) it is needed to be a fire wall, and (2) meets all the requirements for a fire wall per IBC Section 706.

If it meets (2) but not (1), then it is not a fire wall. So, even though the walls may comply with the requirements for a fire wall, they do not need to be fire walls because the actual floor area of the building does not exceed that allowable floor area permitted by the building code.
Click to expand...
Where is item #1 in IBC 2015?
 
Apurva Dave said:
I dont know what year it was built however here is what i have:

1. Building construction type IIIB

2. wall construction:

a. Exterior walls: Masonry Block and Brick + drywall on interior surface

b. Part walls between unit Masnory Block with dry wall on both side
Walls from lowest floor slab to underside of top of roof

c. Interior walls are wood with drywall on both side

3. Occupant load
a. Table 1004.5 maximum floor area allowances per occupant
Residential 200 gross

b. Building gross area 4,600 SF/200SF = 23 occupants

c. Cluster gross area 27,600/200SF = 138 occupants

4. Fire protection systems:

a. Apartments in the buildings are not sprinkled

b. Only electrical rooms in buildings are sprinkled
Click to expand...

Sounds like it has been around awhile!!

There is an old saying, if it met code when built, it is allowed to exist.
 
Apurva Dave said:
how can one figure out lot line, single lot or not existing building?
Click to expand...



So I guess the question is

You are looking at an existing building.

With I take one service.

So if the answer is you have two buildings

What happens from there????

Split the services ???

Or ???
 
Apurva Dave said:
Ok here we go again:

I have cluster 1,2,3,4,5 of aprtment complexes. Each cluster has bldgs.
I am right now working on cluster #1.

Cluster number 1 has bldgs 1,2,3,4,5,6 joined together.

I have New Electric service outside going to New Switchboard Outside. The switchboard has feeder breakwrs feeding Cluster #1,2. There are other brand bew switchboard, electric services for other clusters but I am not working on them.

The switchboard has two feeder breakrs and two outside feeder NEw to bldg #3 cluster #1 and has additional feeder breakers and two new outside feeders to bldg #6 cluster #1.


NEC 2014 section 225 says inly One feeder can feed building.

If Cluster #1 bldgs #1,2,3,4,5,6 are each considered by building code IBC to be considered separate bulimegs the new outside feeders are allowed however if Cluster #1 bdlg 1,2,3,4,5,6 are all one buliding then you cannot have multiple feeders feeding building. There are No exception repeate No exception that applies here for multiple feeders.

Ofcourse the multiple new outside feeders feed bldg #3,6 which then feed existing metersfacks inside which then feed theubattic penetrate so called party wall to each individual dewelling unit panelboard. The panelboard is going to be new but not the feed which pentrate the party wall.
Click to expand...
I now need to know two things:

1. Are bldgs 1,2,3,4,5,6 clister 1 separate buildings or not?
2. What engineer calls party wall is it party wall, fire wll, fire partition?
 
Apurva Dave said:
Someone can delete post #42, #43






1. Bldgs 1,2,3,4,5,6 cluster #1 which are existing are they each considered separate buildings or aew all one buildings?

2. Since their is no NEC code which says I cannot pentrate party wall with wiring and conduit what happens?

3. So called existing party wall is it party wall, fire wall or fire partetion?
Click to expand...

So are you replacing like for like??

Have you submitted electric plans to the city for review??
 
Never dealt with "outside feeders" but if there is ocpd before the conductors to the building, it is only one service..and certainly not an issue...you can feed a building from a remote location/ pedestal service
 
steveray said:
Never dealt with "outside feeders" but if there is ocpd before the conductors to the building, it is only one service..and certainly not an issue...you can feed a building from a remote location/ pedastle service
Click to expand...
Their is ocpd before conductors outside switchgear and that's why they are feeders. Not true! Read NEC 2014, Section 225.30 just like services their is only one outside feeder feeding building not multiple. Same rules apply and no exception apply here my end
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Is there a master meter on the switchboard? If there are meter stacks in each building then the feeders between the switchboard and meter stacks would be part of the service and under the utility's jurisdiction.

The city or county's GIS website should show whether there are property lines passing through the buildings. If not, then the walls between units are not party walls.
 
Paul Sweet said:
Is there a master meter on the switchboard? If there are meter stacks in each building then the feeders between the switchboard and meter stacks would be part of the service and under the utility's jurisdiction.

The city or county's GIS website should show whether there are property lines passing through the buildings. If not, then the walls between units are not party walls.
Click to expand...
No conductors between meter stack and switchboard are not service conductors. Definition of service in NEC is utility conductors. These sre not utility conductors and yes you can have conductors that are not utility its either cold sequence or hot sequence metering one of the two
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top