Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

[Yikes]

Not sure what forum to post this in:

I have a project in a California mountain community that gets a lot of snow and freezing cold at night, and yet is warm (has melting snow) in the daytime. We need to utilize permeable paving in our parking lot for groundwater recharge and general sustainability measures. The building official and public works engineer have previously rejected such pavements (including permeable asphalt, permeable concrete, and interlocking concrete pavers) because this area has major temperature fluctuations of up to 50 degrees variance in a day... from well below freezing at night to mid 70's in the afternoon. They believe this daily freeze-thaw cycle will cause water/ice in the paving voids to break up any permeable paving. We talked to them about a reinforced gravel system such as gravel-pave, but they're concerned about the messiness of gravel.

They realize that permeable paving is inevitably coming to their area, and I told them I would ask around about hte experience in other communities (you guys). They already know it works in climates that are generally cold all winter long - my Bavarian civil engineer has convinced them of that - - but they want to know how it works in places with a high daily temperature fluctuation.

Any experience with this?

 

[steveray]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

The University of New Hampshire has done some great work/ research on permeable concrete. try seeing what you can find in a search engine, saw some good info at a local seminar, but nothing digital that I can send!

Good luck!

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

Our public works storm water engineer will not permit it in our area for groundwater recharge. Her reasons and experience are the clay soils (coming off of the vehicles) wash into the permeable areas and seal them thus rendering the design useless. In other areas with different soils she is all for it.

 

[JayHawkInspector]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

Sounds like Truckee to me

 

[fatboy]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

Not that it matters, but I'm trying to figure out why the building official even has a say in it............ :?

 

[texas transplant]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

Fatboy,

Last City I was at I was also the zoning administrator as well as building official. Paving rules etc. were in the zoning and development code, so I had a say in more than just the building. That might be case there, or knowing what fine, upstanding, intellegent and good looking guys (and gals) that serve as building officials, maybe they just wanted his opinion. :lol:

 

[peach]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

permeable paving is a good thing... it's not a building code thing.. (stormwater management is the approving authority).

The on going maintenance is going to be an issue regardless of the soil conditions.. but you can build bigger, better commercial projects using under paving water retention.. rather than having somewhat dangerous above ground retention areas.

 

[Mac]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

Here in the frozen north (yes there's still some snow) all pavement needs regular maintenance. Usually that means a seal coat of tar sprayed & squeegeed over the existing surface.

How does that effect the permeability?

 

[Yikes]

Re: Permeable paving and freeze-thaw

1. You're right, I was not asking from a building code enforcement standpoint. However, I figured this was a good place to ask, because often smaller mountain communities have a building official that wears many hats: CBO, inspector, planning and community development department head, etc., and you guys have seen it all, so you might have some good advice for me.

2. Not Truckee, but near the San Bernardino National Forest.

3. One thing is for sure: you never seal permeable paving. In fact, when porous asphalt is installed correctly it looks just like a really bad non-sealed asphalt job from a few years ago... lots of small voids and missing 'fines'... looks like asphaltic Rice Krispies treats. We always joke that we now get charged extra for the same kind of finished look that we would have rejected in the 1990's.