Permit required for a change in use in PA?

[Mr. Inspector]

Chapter 1 of the IBC has a list of when a permit is required. Two of the things listed is a change of use and occupancy. But we do not use Chapter 1 of the IBC we use the UCC which does not have change of use on the list but has change of occupancy. How can we require a permit if no work is being done and only the use is being changed. For instance, when a S1 furniture storage building is changed to a S1 motor vehicle repair garage.

 

[walker.t]

How can we require a permit if no work is being done and only the use is being changed.

I thought that, in general, local jurisdictions were allowed to adopt stricter and/or additional requirements in addition to any requirements adopted at the state level. So when you ask, “How can we require a permit,” who is the “we”? Maybe the local authority having jurisdiction?

 

[jar546]

Chapter 1 of the IBC has a list of when a permit is required. Two of the things listed is a change of use and occupancy. But we do not use Chapter 1 of the IBC we use the UCC which does not have change of use on the list but has change of occupancy. How can we require a permit if no work is being done and only the use is being changed. For instance, when a S1 furniture storage building is changed to a S1 motor vehicle repair garage.

This is where L&I's rules come in which brings me to the conversation I had with the very first, and the second director of L&I's UCC division starting in the very beginning in 2004 and continuing to my last discussion with the second man in charge in 2016.

First and foremost, a commercial building must have a CO or a record of a CO. If it does not at the local level and L&I has no records; then it is considered an uncertified building, and no matter what it was used as it is a change of use and occupancy. I've been through this dozens of times with L&I along with all of the businesses in multiple jurisdictions.

For example a lady purchased a hair salon to open up a hair salon. Her state license required that she have a CO. She called me for a CO and I said we only issue COs to permitted work, as the permit number is the first thing required on a CO. I told her to contact L&I and have them search their records for a CO form the old 1928/29 PA Fire & Panic Act. L&I was unable to find one, therefore a CO did not exist and it was considered an uncertified building.

She could not operate without a CO and the only way to get one was to pull a permit to do work and since there were no records, was a change of use and occupancy renovation. She had to comply with the IEBC and make the necessary changes in order to get a CO and operate legally within her license requirements.

Like I said, we did this dozens of time with the guidance of L&I for years without any problems. That is the way it is in PA.

 

[ICE]

without any problems

Well unless you are the lady that bought the hair salon.

we did this dozens of time with the guidance of L&I for years

Buildings are held hostage for the lack of a document and for years nobody found a better way to do business? That's typical government inaction that people complain about.

I’m sure that everyone has heard the saying: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. A longstanding hair salon should not fall prey to a bureaucratic demand for a document that serves the purposes of the government and may or may not have been misplaced by that government.

Where was the government during the years that the hair salon operated? Has the risk to life and limb escalated by the wanton sale of the salon? Ridiculous actions taken against an individual poison the reputation of the building department for anyone that hears the story. Come to think of it, what could be more fitting than that?

Take a lesson from department stores. A woman that I knew intimately worked at a store that instructed her to accept returned merchandise with no argument…and a smile, always a smile
That held true even if the item was not sold by the store. The idea was that twenty customers might witness another customer being denied and develop a bad impression of the store. So it doesn’t matter that they didn’t sell toasters… if a few dollars would settle the matter and polish the apple.

And the woman that I knew intimately? well then, … I’m convinced that she was hired due to the smile….there wasn’t a lot going on behind it.

Picking on a hard working lady that has an entrepreneurial spirit …. Well that takes some shine off your apple.

 

[jar546]

Buildings are held hostage for the lack of a document and for years nobody found a better way to do business? That's typical government inaction that people complain about.

Paying for the sins of the fathers and grandfathers. This is the result. A program is in place to catch these, and the system is working as designed. Whoa is me you had to put 20% of the costs towards ADA and modernize with emergency lights and a few other odds and ends. My heart bleeds.

 

[tmurray]

Pretty rare to be able to buy a business and get all of the assets, but none of the liabilities.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

This is where L&I's rules come in which brings me to the conversation I had with the very first, and the second director of L&I's UCC division starting in the very beginning in 2004 and continuing to my last discussion with the second man in charge in 2016.

First and foremost, a commercial building must have a CO or a record of a CO. If it does not at the local level and L&I has no records; then it is considered an uncertified building, and no matter what it was used as it is a change of use and occupancy. I've been through this dozens of times with L&I along with all of the businesses in multiple jurisdictions.

For example a lady purchased a hair salon to open up a hair salon. Her state license required that she have a CO. She called me for a CO and I said we only issue COs to permitted work, as the permit number is the first thing required on a CO. I told her to contact L&I and have them search their records for a CO form the old 1928/29 PA Fire & Panic Act. L&I was unable to find one, therefore a CO did not exist and it was considered an uncertified building.

She could not operate without a CO and the only way to get one was to pull a permit to do work and since there were no records, was a change of use and occupancy renovation. She had to comply with the IEBC and make the necessary changes in order to get a CO and operate legally within her license requirements.

Like I said, we did this dozens of time with the guidance of L&I for years without any problems. That is the way it is in PA.

Yes, I have did this myself at business that do not have a C. O. many times. But I am talking about a place that does have a C. O. for an occupancy and is changing the use but will be still under the same occupancy. Change of use but not change of occupancy.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Chapter 1 of the IBC has a list of when a permit is required. Two of the things listed is a change of use and occupancy. But we do not use Chapter 1 of the IBC we use the UCC which does not have change of use on the list but has change of occupancy. How can we require a permit if no work is being done and only the use is being changed. For instance, when a S1 furniture storage building is changed to a S1 motor vehicle repair garage.

Change of occupancy requires a building permit, because floor area requirements for single exits may be different. Travel distances to exits may change. (For example, I had an old plumbing shop, largely a business/personal services occupancy with some ancillary retail that wasn't a big part of the business change over to a store. The exit path requirements changed. The plumbing shop only needed one exit, but the store required two. The end result was the client having to take an inward-swinging door at the back and turning it to an out-swinging door.)

Ventilation requirements will be different. In this particular case, ASHRAE 62.1 (if it applies to your area) requires 0.06 cfm/square foot for warehouses, but for auto repair facilities, I'd apply the "manufacturing" criteria (Table 6-1) and require 0.18 cfm/square foot, plus the requirement for exhaust management under table 6.2.

Changes of occupancy are also a good time to address non-conformities with the code..... Emergency lights? Fire extinguishers?

For example a lady purchased a hair salon to open up a hair salon. Her state license required that she have a CO. She called me for a CO and I said we only issue COs to permitted work, as the permit number is the first thing required on a CO. I told her to contact L&I and have them search their records for a CO form the old 1928/29 PA Fire & Panic Act. L&I was unable to find one, therefore a CO did not exist and it was considered an uncertified building.

If the Realtor working for the purchaser didn't ask for a zoning confirmation document to confirm the legality of the use as part of the sale, the Realtor is incompetent.

It's standard practice to verify the suitability of a property for the function it is or will be used for prior to paying for it. Our office receives these requests regularly.

 

[ICE]

Paying for the sins of the fathers and grandfathers.

There's several degrees of separation built into that. It's somehow fair to pay for the sins of someone else's father and grandfather? Strangers in a bygone era leave land mines that the government is all too happy to let you step on. No warning, no flag, just a boom.

A program is in place to catch these, and the system is working as designed.

What program? Do you mean the License Board that regulates hair salons? A candy store skates but a hair salon gets hammered? Does the government believe the equity training that they make us sit through?

Whoa is me......My heart bleeds

Callus fits,

 

[tmurray]

The way I see the difference between use and occupancy, "occupancy" tends to be a much more generalized and encompassing word from a code perspective where use is a lot more granular and deals with the specific uses of spaces in the building.

I would suggest if the code requires a permit for a change in use, it would naturally also include a permit requirement for changes in occupancy.

 

[Paul Sweet]

Bureaucracy at its finest. Every building built and used before a building code was adopted and COs were first issued is uncertified and therefore can't be used by anyone else without bringing it up to current code.

Many small businesses are started by people working on a shoestring and borrowed money and don't have anything left over to make significant upgrades.

 

[jar546]

Bureaucracy at its finest. Every building built and used before a building code was adopted and COs were first issued is uncertified and therefore can't be used by anyone else without bringing it up to current code.

Many small businesses are started by people working on a shoestring and borrowed money and don't have anything left over to make significant upgrades.

Wrong. There was a program for all commercial buildings in PA going back to 1928 under the Fire & Panic Act. I had plenty of buildings get old COs from L&I and not have to get anything else. There has been a system in place for almost 100 years. Do your homework before you buy a building.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Wrong. There was a program for all commercial buildings in PA going back to 1928 under the Fire & Panic Act. I had plenty of buildings get old COs from L&I and not have to get anything else. There has been a system in place for almost 100 years. Do your homework before you buy a building.

Jar is right. We have a lot of commercial buildings in PA that never got an inspection or C. O. from the state when they were required too. We don't go around looking for them but when they go to get a permit for work and we ask for the current C.O., if they do not have one, we need to treat it as a change of occupancy no matter what they are planning to do.

But back to the subject I started. In PA we do not use Chapter 1 of the IBC we use the UCC which does not have change of use on the when a permit is required list, it only has change of occupancy. IBC chapter 10 clearly indicates there is a different between an occupancy classification and a use. If they are changing the use but not the occupancy, how can we require a permit?

2018 IBC
[A] 101.4.7 Existing buildings. The provisions of the
International Existing Building Code shall apply to matters.
governing the repair, alteration, change of occupancy,
addition to and relocation of existing buildings.

Nothing about a change of use on this section too.

 

[steveray]

Jar is right. We have a lot of commercial buildings in PA that never got an inspection or C. O. from the state when they were required too. We don't go around looking for them but when they go to get a permit for work and we ask for the current C.O., if they do not have one, we need to treat it as a change of occupancy no matter what they are planning to do.

But back to the subject I started. In PA we do not use Chapter 1 of the IBC we use the UCC which does not have change of use on the when a permit is required list, it only has change of occupancy. IBC chapter 10 clearly indicates there is a different between an occupancy classification and a use. If they are changing the use but not the occupancy, how can we require a permit?

A change of use IS a change of occupancy....Permit required....

[A] CHANGE OF OCCUPANCY. Either of the following shall be considered as a change of occupancy where this code requires a greater degree of safety, accessibility, structural strength, fire protection, means of egress, ventilation or sanitation than is existing in the current building or structure:

1. Any change in the occupancy classification of a building or structure.
2. Any change in the purpose of, or a change in the level of activity within, a building or structure.