• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Pipe Sleeves

G

globe trekker

REGISTERED
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
1,739
From Section 305.5 in the 2006 IPC & P2603.5 in the 2006 IRC:

Pipes through or under footings or foundation walls.

Any pipe that passes under a footing or through a foundation wall shall be

provided with a relieving arch, or a pipe sleeve pipe shall be built into the

foundation wall. The sleeve shall be two pipe sizes greater than the pipe

passing through the wall.

QUESTION # 1: Do any of you actually require this on the Residential or

Commercial projects?

QUESTION # 2: How much "under" a foundation wall do you, or would

you require the piping to be located to not require a pipe sleeve? 1 inch,

..2 inches, ..4 inches, ..6 inches, ..1 foot, ????

As always, please cite the applicable code sections. Thanks! :)

One example from the City of Dallas, TX:

http://www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/Building/PipesThrough.pdf

.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks docgj!

Let me clarify my QUESTION # 2. A sewer or water pipe is passing underneath

a footing, ..either a perimeter footing or an interior footing / grade beam. When

the pipe is passing underneath it, at what point / measured dimension would

you ( and others ) not require a pipe sleeve, or relieving arch?

Example: A Commercial project has a perimeter footing designed at 24 inches

wide by 30 inches deep. The sewer pipe will be passing underneath the perimeter

footing approx. 1 foot, ..2 foot, ..6 inches, ..2.5 feet or ** insert your

measurement here ** below the bottom of the footing.

How far below the bottom of the footing will a pipe sleeve "not" be required?

Thanks ya'll! :)

.
 
Let's work backward...

Take the difference between the sleeve and pipe size. That is the max the foundation could sink before damaging the pipe.

I would suggest that dimension would be sufficient below the footing without a sleeve.
 
I would defer to the geotechnical engineer for the project to determine how far below the footing the pipe should be.

In spite of any requirement I am dubious about the ability of the oversized sleeve to accomodate movement. If the space ibetween the sleeve and the pipe is filld with caulking or waterproofing material the pipe will likely be tied to the settlement of the wall. Thus why put in a sleeve. We all do this because it is "common sense" but the question is it based on good science?
 
As Mark stated I would refer them to the DP as this is a commercial project.

docgj
 
When the pipe is installed there usually are minimal loads on the footing. As the building is erected the loads will increase, if the design is correct there should be minimal setteling I don't see this as problem where there are DP's on the project for soils and foundations. Now a house I always require the arch. As for the foundation wall I was taught the annular space was required to keep the concrete from shrinking against the pipe and allow for expansion and contraction of the pipe throughout the life of the pipe.
 
#1. Always However we allow carpet pad along with a pipe surrounding the pipe.

#2. If it's not showing in the footing I don't worry about it!
 
We require the oversized pipe sleeves for any pipe passing under a footing, and a plastic pipe sleeve (anti-corrosion) for metal pipes passing through a foundation wall.

For water services, we require a pipe sleeve that is either underneath the footing, or placed in the footing in such manner that the sleeve exits the structure at or below the frostline. Exceptions are granted in cases where the service will obviously be covered deep enough at final grading.
 
FWIW we are still under the 94 UPC since it was state law when we went to the 06 codes.

If it is in concrete it needs a sleeve.

If it is in a commercial project the engineer's here have a detail called for sleeving of being a certain depth below the footing for all pipe penetrations (includes electric, etc...).
 
globe trekker said:
From Section 305.5 in the 2006 IPC & P2603.5 in the 2006 IRC:The sleeve shall be two pipe sizes greater than the pipe

passing through the wall.

Click to expand...
This is a slightly confusing way to describe the requirement: "two pipe sizes greater". Is this a mathmatical statement, or an NPS reference? IOW, does this mean a 2" pipe requires:

(A) a (2" x 2) = 4" sleeve, which leaves a 1 5/8" gap? *OR *

(B) 2" < 2 1/2" < 3" = 2 sizes greater, therefore use a 3" nominal size pipe sleeve, which leaves a 5/8" gap?
 
Thanks for all of the input! :)

Yikes,

As I understand the code sections, it would be "trade sized pipe", 2 sizes larger.

EX: 2" pipe would require a [ minimum ] 3" pipe sleeve. 3/4" pipe / tubing

would require would require a [ minimum ] 1.25" sized pipe sleeve.

" FredK " brought up another excellent point of discussion, ..." the electrical

pipe / conduit". How may of you are requiring a sleeve for the schedule 80

conduit underneath or through the foundations? Maybe we can lure the

electrical forum members in on this aspect, ..to get their input.

What say ye Jeff, Chris, Chris, and others? :)

.

.
 
I don't worry about the electrical conduits beacuse the wires are already protected by the conduit. Isn't that the whole purpose is to protect what is running through the beam? The wires are protected with the conduit.
 
Mule said:
I don't worry about the electrical conduits beacuse the wires are already protected by the conduit. Isn't that the whole purpose is to protect what is running through the beam? The wires are protected with the conduit.
Click to expand...
I am with Mule on this one. Otherwise, we are going to start requiring sleeves to protect sleeves to protect sleeves . . .
 
Mule said:
I don't worry about the electrical conduits beacuse the wires are already protected by the conduit. Isn't that the whole purpose is to protect what is running through the beam? The wires are protected with the conduit.
Click to expand...
It wasn't the conduit that the engineer's wanted protected it was the earth under or concrete footing. They detail out a 45 slope from point of entry and that's required to be sleeved and slurry filled or a sleeve through the footing. Either way it's a "B" when the electrican shows up with an elbow in that location.
 
Let me clarify my QUESTION # 2. A sewer or water pipe is passing underneath

a footing, ..either a perimeter footing or an interior footing / grade beam. When

the pipe is passing underneath it, at what point / measured dimension would

you ( and others ) not require a pipe sleeve, or relieving arch?

Example: A Commercial project has a perimeter footing designed at 24 inches

wide by 30 inches deep. The sewer pipe will be passing underneath the perimeter

footing approx. 1 foot, ..2 foot, ..6 inches, ..2.5 feet or ** insert your

measurement here ** below the bottom of the footing.

1) In my opinion the footer is as "relieving" as it can get and if the pipe is not touching the underside of the footer it is good. If the entire footer is sinking then bigger problems exist.

2) PVC & ABS thru masonry walls, bust out one cell and the block above if laid correctly is the arch (I know what the definition of an arch is) The worst thing you can do is require a 4" waste pipe passing thru a foundation wall to go thru a 6" sleeve, now what have you done to the wall?

3) Water line under footer see #1, water lines thru foundation walls gets a sleeve 2 pipe sizes larger. 1" water line requires a 1 1/2" sleeve patched around exterior, caulked around the interior of the sleeve.
 
While concrete does shrink and pipe does expand and contract due to temperature changes I will suggest that these effects are not significant even to an obsessive engineer.

Any pipe in the ground will deflect as the surrounding soil settles. This is true whether the pipe is near a foundation, out in a field, or under a road. Failure in the pipe can occur if the curvature of the pipe in the soil is excessive. This will only occur if either the soil is extremely soft or if the foundation loads are high enough to result in significant settlement in the soil. This will be less of a concern the smaller the pipe. When the pipe is even a short distance below the footing the curvature in the pipe will be greatly reduced.

When you crunch the numbers I will suggest that unless very unusual conditions occur that there is no problem.

Given that contractors do not always comply with the code it would be reasonable to expect that a significant number of pipes not installed with sleeves. If there is a need for sleeves I would then expect to see a number of failures. What is your observation? Is there a problem? When there was a problem with pipes due to foundation settlement I would suggest there were bigger problems than failed pipes..

Because all the electrical conduit does is to protect the flexible wires I suggest that there is even less concern for conduit.

The 45 degree slope shown on the drawings applies to pipe parallel to the footing and not pipes perpendicular to the footing. Pipes within this 45 degree slope would be acceptable if the project geotechnical engineer has no problem.

If you are even one foot below the footing I would suggest that there is no problem. If the pipe is below the footing I would defer to the project geotechnical engineer.

When installing pipes through footings with or without sleeves I would be more concerned about the effects of the holes on the concrete footing and reinforcing. Of particular concern are the effects of multiple pipes or conduits close by. Electrical contractors will often run multiple conduits close together.
 
I failed a job when the PVC sewer line undercut the footing bearing along its length, an engineer had it slurry fill. This made the relieving arc pointless IMHO.

I’ve heard of Styrofoam board being used over the pipes as a relieving arch.
 
If the pipe is perpendicular to the footing and the styrofoam is between the pipe and the footing the footing will span over the pipe. The styrofoam is intended to crush before the pipe is overloaded thus protecting the pipe.

If the pipe is parallel to the footing and close to the footing the best approach is probably to use a slurry mix or engineered fill. You could also lower the bottom of the footing.
 
Yes.. if the penetraion is within the 45 degree area of influence of the building gravity forces.. deep enough, it doesn't matter
 
First personally I am inclined to believe that we have a solution in search of a problem. I am not convinced we would have a problem even if is there was no sleeve.

From a regulatory position I have yet to see a requirement in the model codes that requires anything be done if the pipe is below the footing. If this is the case there is no basis to require anything other than the soil upon which the footing is placed is not negatively impacted.

When the pipe is parallel to the footing footing the foam would add nothing and could have a negative impact.

When the pipe passes through the footing the foam would be used as an alternate means of compliance (IBC Section 104.11). In this case I would suggest that a thickness of foam twice the gap in the sleeve required by the code.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top