Please tell me what you think

[ICE]

Several years ago it was decided that we would require a jumper between the hot and cold water pipes at the water heater with all el. services. The subject has come up for debate yet again and I have been asked to solicit opinions.

Obviously, hot water pipe shall be bonded.

Code requires a bonding jumper.

The definition of a bonding jumper is "A reliable conductor".

There are three definitions of a conductor that include bare, covered and insulated and all are wire or bus bar.

Faucets and water heaters are not "reliable conductors".

There is the "low-impedance" feature of bonding jumpers that is ignored with anything other that a conductor.

Arguments against a jumper between hot and cold pipes include the fact that the code states: "The metal water piping system shall be bonded" and faucets and appliances are part of the system. As a part of the system, no jumper around them is required.

Another is that we are not applying the entire code to service upgrades.... i.e. arc fault and gfci protection, receptacle spacing etc. so why would we require a jumper that didn't exist before the upgrade.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and ExposedStructural Steel.

(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system

shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of

this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in

accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of

attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

Bonding Jumper. A reliable conductor to ensure the

required electrical conductivity between metal parts

required to be electrically connected.

I am looking for yes or no votes and any explanation is welcome.

Thanks

 

[chris kennedy]

There is the "low-impedance" feature of bonding jumpers that is ignored with anything other that a conductor.

I'm going to sleep on this but IMO a metallic pipe system has lower impedance than a wire type conductor.

 

[ICE]

I'm going to sleep on this but IMO a metallic pipe system has lower impedance than a wire type conductor.

I would agree that pipe is a low impedance path but I'm not so sure about the path through a water heater or faucet which are both unknown whereas a wire is known and will not degrade over time.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Several years ago it was decided that we would require a jumper between the hot and cold water pipes at the water heater with all el. services. The subject has come up for debate yet again and I have been asked to solicit opinions.Obviously, hot water pipe shall be bonded.

Code requires a bonding jumper.

The definition of a bonding jumper is "A reliable conductor".

There are three definitions of a conductor that include bare, covered and insulated and all are wire or bus bar.

Faucets and water heaters are not "reliable conductors".

There is the "low-impedance" feature of bonding jumpers that is ignored with anything other that a conductor.

Arguments against a jumper between hot and cold pipes include the fact that the code states: "The metal water piping system shall be bonded" and faucets and appliances are part of the system. As a part of the system, no jumper around them is required.

Another is that we are not applying the entire code to service upgrades.... i.e. arc fault and gfci protection, receptacle spacing etc. so why would we require a jumper that didn't exist before the upgrade.

I am looking for yes or no votes and any explanation is welcome.

Thanks

My answer would be yes. Installing the bonding jumper at the hot water heater on a copper water system is the most logical location, it will always be accessible as required. We bond the water main within 5 feet of entering the building, that covers the cold side of the piping. At the water heater it could be installed with dielectric unions that would not allow a conductive path to the rest of the piping system on the outlet side of the hot water heater, by adding the bonding jumper from the cold to the hot will continue the low impedance path back to the main panel.

 

[Rider Rick]

No, not needed.

 

[Darren Emery]

Bonding jumper required here, at water heater, IF there is a metal water pipe system. VERY rare these days on residential. Still see some in commercial.

 

[fatboy]

Same as Darren........

 

[globe trekker]

If there is pex plastic piping supplied to the WH (cold water)

and then pex plastic piping supplied from the WH (hot water),

can you bond the metal connectors if diectric unions are not

installed? Also, what if there are no metal connectors used?

Some locations are using a braided, rubber hose type connector,

similar to a hydraulic hose.

In conjunction with what Darren posted, here we don't have

any metal potable water supply piping to residences any more.

All pvc or pex!

.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Is it the piping system or the water within the piping system that provides the path for electricity? I am ignorant about this subject but I do remember a former electrical inspector proving to me that electricity (continuity test) would travel through the water in a cpvc water system. He said it was the impurities and chemical used to treat the water that provided the continuity.

Was it just a parlor trick or does it have merit?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Is it the piping system or the water within the piping system that provides the path for electricity? I am ignorant about this subject but I do remember a former electrical inspector proving to me that electricity (continuity test) would travel through the water in a cpvc water system. He said it was the impurities and chemical used to treat the water that provided the continuity. Was it just a parlor trick or does it have merit?

The answer to your question would be both, the copper tubing, or galvanized will conduct current, and if there is enough mineral content in the water in most cases it does,but if the water is distilled it becomes an insulator due to the removal of all minerals.

There are a lot of different types of equipment that use continuity sensors for water levels such as cooling towers, condensate drains for AC units etc.

 

[Gregg Harris]

If there is pex plastic piping supplied to the WH (cold water)and then pex plastic piping supplied from the WH (hot water),

can you bond the metal connectors if diectric unions are not

installed? Also, what if there are no metal connectors used?

Some locations are using a braided, rubber hose type connector,

similar to a hydraulic hose.

In conjunction with what Darren posted, here we don't have

any metal potable water supply piping to residences any more.

All pvc or pex!

.

Plastic piping is not required to be bonded it is an insulator and will not conduct current. The water heater itself does not need to be bonded in your scenario it is already grounded by it's electrical supply.

 

[Architect1281]

Under the Bonding "Likely to be energized" aspect of the NEC if the system has equipment that would interupt the path back to the main bond the ( YES) a secondary jumper would or could be necessary, things like water filters with non-metalic portions could be a hinderance to conduction.

 

[BSSTG]

Greetings,

Metal piping system, bonding between hot and cold required. Preferably at the water heater. It has been required for years. Some like to bond the gas pipe at this point as well. I like it since I can see it.

When I was a kid I was almot electrocuted in a masonry shower in a newly constructed home. Proper gounding and bonding would have probably prohibited that and at the same time should have contributed to whatever was malfunctioning in the system to pop the breaker. I was too young to know exactly what happened though. However in retrospect, I was obvioulsy in the ground path as something was malfunctioning and at the same time bonding/grounding was probably not in place. To me it's not different than proper bonding on metal bldgs., mobile homes and any other metallic systems. All should be grounded and/or bonded.

BS

 

[BSSTG]

Greetings again,

I forgot to mention that when I do a TCI inspction on a new home or business, I track diown all of the wiring in the grounding and bonding system before releasing the permit. Years ago on the SBCCI test there was a questoin on the electrical test. What is the most important wire of the circuit? ans ground wire

BS

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Greetings,Metal piping system, bonding between hot and cold required. Preferably at the water heater. It has been required for years. Some like to bond the gas pipe at this point as well. I like it since I can see it.

When I was a kid I was almot electrocuted in a masonry shower in a newly constructed home. Proper gounding and bonding would have probably prohibited that and at the same time should have contributed to whatever was malfunctioning in the system to pop the breaker. I was too young to know exactly what happened though. However in retrospect, I was obvioulsy in the ground path as something was malfunctioning and at the same time bonding/grounding was probably not in place. To me it's not different than proper bonding on metal bldgs., mobile homes and any other metallic systems. All should be grounded and/or bonded.

BS

A broken neutral at the neighbor's house can back feed through the water lines, and high voltage; low current will not trip the breaker or fuse, yet it can kill.

On the surface I agree, with older structures that still have all metal or mostly metal water pipe and definitely in commercial especially of non-combustible construction. Here the requirement become unnecessary with tankless install as it has all internal copper piping to the connectors.

I used to go along with the argument of where likely to be energized but even though electrical devices on sprinkler pipes have EGC similar to the requirement for other pipes; the CMP was explicit that it shall be bonded to the service grounding electrode system regardless.

Bonding the hot enough but what do you require with alterations and repairs; make them use copper or install bonding jumpers? Commercial seems easier to enforce because of the discipline and used of metal present.

"You will not get a definite required or not consensus. At what point is the water piping system not considered to be metal and thus not required to be bonded? The answer to this question is not as clear as the one for the grounding electrode. An assessment must be made regarding the amount of metal in the system and whether this metal pipe and any metal support for the metal piping may become energized. It is also important to determine if a difference of potential could exist between the metal piping in the water system and an electrical circuit located in proximity to the water pipe.

Could the electrical system energize the metal piping in the predominantly nonmetallic water piping system? If the answer is no, or unlikely, then the metal piping would not be required to be bonded. If the answer is yes, then the metal water piping must be bonded in accordance with 250.104(A). "

Bonging Water Piping

Ice why do you keep bringing this topic up for discussion? http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?563-explain-it-PLEASE-would-be-nice-to-hear-now-and-then



http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001764

Francis

 

[ICE]

Greetings,Metal piping system, bonding between hot and cold required. Preferably at the water heater. It has been required for years. Some like to bond the gas pipe at this point as well. I like it since I can see it.

I agree and have been getting the gas pipe bond at the water heater ever since a coworker suggested it two years ago.

One reason that I am against changing the rule back to no jumper is that this requirement is just a few years old and now we are considering rescinding the requirement. It's like we can't make up our mind.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Greetings again,I forgot to mention that when I do a TCI inspction on a new home or business, I track diown all of the wiring in the grounding and bonding system before releasing the permit. Years ago on the SBCCI test there was a questoin on the electrical test. What is the most important wire of the circuit? ans ground wire

BS

What's TCI & SBCCI?

So far we've manage to have local plumbing contractors aware when possible to leave the old metal water pipe or have the property owner contact an electrician, cable and telephone company as applicable for grounding the system.

Francis

 

[Dennis]

I am not sure if the OP is looking for a response that is code based or whether the jumper has merit? IMO, there is no code section that requires the plumbing to be jumped between the hot and cold. As long as there is continuity between the piping then there is no need for the jumper. Obviously if a dielectric fitting is used then there would be a need.

It has never been required here. There has also been arguments as to whether it is required if the system is not continuous or a total metal piping system. Suppose there is pecs coming off the water heater on the hot and cold and that connects to the copper water system throughout the building. Is a jumper needed?

IMO, it is not required and one could argue whether or not the water pipe needs to be bonded. In this event the metal piping not attached to the water heater is not likely to become energized so IMO, it does not need the bonding at all. IN NC the state has made an arbitrary rule that if the METAL piping constitutes more than 50% of the entire system then they require the bonding. The NEC IMO does not.

 

[ICE]

Ice why do you keep bringing this topic up for discussion? http://www.inspectpa.com/forum/showthread.php?563-explain-it-PLEASE-would-be-nice-to-hear-now-and-then



http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001764

Francis[/font][/font]

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This is for someone else and Shirely, you might understand how I could forget.

Besides that, it was a long time ago and there are three times as many forum members now.

And the ICC forum no less.....you never forget anything

Next time, remind me sooner will ya.

 

[ICE]

I am not sure if the OP is looking for a response that is code based or whether the jumper has merit? IMO, there is no code section that requires the plumbing to be jumped between the hot and cold. As long as there is continuity between the piping then there is no need for the jumper.

Code based is the only way I can go.

It is always a plus if there is merit as well.

There is merit in fulfilling a code requirement.

Continuity does not equate to a low impedance path.

Then again, the code does not spell out that a low impedance water piping system is required so there may not be a violation if the hot water pipe is bonded by a high impedance connection through corroded fittings at a water heater.

I would tend to believe that the people that wrote the code anticipated this question.

Could be that's why bonding jumpers is plural in that code section.....or maybe not

You being a contractor means that your opinion is couched in cost benefit. I also get the feeling that safety is more important to you than dollars so I appreciate your input.

Thanks

PS to everyone:

This is not about PEX. Strictly metal piping.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

This discussion is like a footnote goes right alongside of the outdoor unit disconnect working clearance interpretation.

Francis

 

[ICE]

This discussion is like a footnote goes right alongside of the outdoor unit disconnect working clearance interpretation.Francis

I was all by myself on that one....here at the forum....not at my AHJ

 

[BSSTG]

What's TCI & SBCCI?

TCI = temporaray cut in, initial release to the power company oking the power up of a service. Common acronym in Tx.

SBCCI = Southern Building Code Congress International

BS

 

[ICE]

Good news folks. The chief electrical engineer has decided that henceforth we will not require a jumper at the water heater between the hot and cold water pipe. Apparently, the pipe is bonded well enough by faucets and there is a small likelihood that it will become energized.

I don't have a problem with it either way it gets done. This rule came from the top several years ago and I have written the correction a few hundred times. At this point, most of the electricians in my area are doing it without a correction from me. I suppose that I should give them a heads up and tell them that it's not required anymore.

One of the reasons that the rule has been tossed is that many of the inspectors never paid any attention to it to begin with. It's not too hard to get behind tossing a rule that few inspectors enforce. We could toss out a bunch of the code for that reason.

A few inspectors expanded on the rule and included the gas pipe in this bonding jumper at the water heater. Yes I know that the NEC doesn't require this if there is an appliance that has both electrical and gas but how are we to know when there is no access. Well the new twist is that we are to find out about the bonding of the gas pipe via an equipment ground serving an appliance and if there is none then install a bonding jumper.

I look forward to tossing this new rule so I hope that nobody but me enforces it. Come to think of it, I know of a few corrections that I consistently find that the other inspectors aren't writing. I don't think that anybody is asking for a strap at over-bored top plates or deration of conductors for more that three in a raceway and more. I'm sorta fed up with the questions like "Since when can't a one inch conduit have 17 #12"? and "What does over-bored mean"?

I am pretty sure that the people in charge around here would say that I am in the wrong and that I should get on the same page as everyone else. And what the Hell, people aren't getting electrocuted and houses aren't burning down so why not get back in the fold?