Porti-potties

[fatboy]

My point exactly..........MT

 

[mtlogcabin]

and accessible to the public

If this was a fleet fueling station for a specific company I might go with a porta potty because it is not used by the public.

Now there are many fueling stations across the rural western states that fuel is available 24/7 with a credit or debit card however the restrooms along with the rest of the business is locked up like Fort Knox. Fast food restaurants that close the inside dining area after midnight but the drive through stays open till 2 AM. Is that a building code violation I am willing to enforce? No way. Many businesses are migrating towards some form of automation with providing a product where public restrooms are no longer available for use by their customers. Is it a violation? Building maybe ADA no can't be an ADA violation since all customers are denied use of a restroom while patronizing a business.

Things change and the way business operates changes. Are the codes behind the times or hindering business by requiring restrooms for customers who will be there 15 minutes or less?

 

[kilitact]

I can't find a 2902.1 ex 2. What code cycle is that in?

2009 Oregon Structural Specialty Code.

This is similar to an ATM or other types of dispensing (coke, candy etc) machines being place outdoors under protective structures without seating areas or enclosed buildings and no employes on site. Do y'all require plumbing facilities for all of these?

 

[retire09]

If the project did not have the canopy it would still serve the same use so would you still require the restrooms?

Now where is your structure?

I think the AHJ should waive the restroom requirement.

You could determine the occupant load to be zero using 1004.1.1 ex.

 

[north star]

~ | ~ | ~



fatboy,

For discussion purposes, let's say that you do not have a clear code

path to require on-site, fully compliant restrooms.......You tell the

developer that it is your understanding of the codes that fully compliant

restrooms are required; most likely a single Male & Female ADA compliant

type.

The developer tells you that it is their understanding of the codes

that restrooms are not required, and will NOT build the CNG facility in

your jurisdiction if you require them......You cite Section 309.1 for what

you believe is the correct Occupancy Group classification [ i.e. -

Motor Fuel Dispensing Facilities ].........The developer responds with

their view that the facility is not occupied, and therefore Section 309.1

is invalid.

Now, all of that said, ...if us supposed "code experts" can't agree on a clear

code determination, ...is this [ purported ] gray area worth losing a revenue

source over ?........I am NOT saying to bow to the almighty dollar, but there

are a lot of of jurisdictions that are in very desperate need of long term

revenue sources.........I am also NOT saying that to not provide restrooms

is right or correct........I am just throwing out the thoughts.

Also, ...if there is a single jurisdiction in these United States that has

never [ ever ] succumbed to the lure of the dollar; especially in the code(s)

gray areas, ...someone please list that or those jurisdictions........Again, ...I

am NOT saying it is right or correct, just food for thought..........Also,

...**fatboy** if you sincerely believe that some type of on-site restrooms;

permanent or temporary, are required, then stick to your beliefs and see

where it goes.

As an option to have the permanent on-site restrooms, ...could you suggest

to the developer to offer some more automated type of services & products

for sale at this type of fueling facility, ...to help defer the costs [ i.e. -

some automated food, ...auto accessories, ...personal hygiene and other

type products ?...........Maybe even an ATM machine ] of the on-site

restrooms ?............REASON: In recent years, I have noticed a trend with

developers of the Big Box type stores.........They have a Big Box that wants

to build in a certain location..........The developers then go about finding

other businesses that want to be associated with & located near the Big

Box........A "symbiotic" type of business relationship if you will.

Could your "proposed" automated fueling station be one of these types

of symbiotic developments ?.......As **mtlogcabin** stated, business models

are changing rapidly and continuously.........I DO believe that there is a

growing trend in automated facilities though.

Stepping down from the podium now...

~ | ~ | ~

 

[fatboy]

I really do appreciate all the input.........not really the direction I thought it would go, but that's why I posted it.

I'll let y'all know what direction it goes.

 

[mtlogcabin]

[h=2]Americans with Disabilities Act:[/h][h=2]Assistance at Self-Serve Gas Stations[/h]

People with disabilities may find it difficult or impossible to use the controls, hose, or nozzle of a self-serve gas pump. As a result, at stations that offer both self and full service, people with disabilities might have no choice but to purchase the more expensive gas from a full-serve pump. At locations with only self-serve pumps, they might be unable to purchase gas at all.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires self-serve gas stations to provide equal access to their customers with disabilities. If necessary to provide access, gas stations must -

• Provide refueling assistance upon the request of an individual with a disability. A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee, but is encouraged to do so, if feasible.
  
• Let patrons know (e.g., through appropriate signs) that customers with disabilities can obtain refueling assistance by either honking or otherwise signaling an employee.
  
• Provide the refueling assistance without any charge beyond the self-serve price.
  

If you have additional questions concerning the ADA, you may call the Department of Justice's ADA Information Line at (800) 514-0301 (voice) or (800) 514-0383 (TDD) or access the ADA Home Page at: (

Looks like there are more than a dozen in your state right now, maybe contact the other AHJ's and find out how they handled them

http://www.cngrefuelingsystems.com/services/cng-fueling-stations/

,

 

[kilitact]

[h=2]Americans with Disabilities Act:[/h][h=2]Assistance at Self-Serve Gas Stations[/h] People with disabilities may find it difficult or impossible to use the controls, hose, or nozzle of a self-serve gas pump. As a result, at stations that offer both self and full service, people with disabilities might have no choice but to purchase the more expensive gas from a full-serve pump. At locations with only self-serve pumps, they might be unable to purchase gas at all.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires self-serve gas stations to provide equal access to their customers with disabilities. If necessary to provide access, gas stations must -

• Provide refueling assistance upon the request of an individual with a disability. A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee, but is encouraged to do so, if feasible.
  
• Let patrons know (e.g., through appropriate signs) that customers with disabilities can obtain refueling assistance by either honking or otherwise signaling an employee.
  
• Provide the refueling assistance without any charge beyond the self-serve price.
  

If you have additional questions concerning the ADA, you may call the Department of Justice's ADA Information Line at (800) 514-0301 (voice) or (800) 514-0383 (TDD) or access the ADA Home Page at: (

Looks like there are more than a dozen in your state right now, maybe contact the other AHJ's and find out how they handled them

http://www.cngrefuelingsystems.com/services/cng-fueling-stations/

,

The design that was submitted for an unmanned station would be required to be manned in order to comply with ADA, this will require a restroom.

 

[north star]

& . . . . . &



fatboy,

This is a very interesting question & topic.

Continuing with the discussion...

With 6 pumping stations proposed for this project, ...what is going to

be your Occupant Load [ at 2 nozzles per station, 1 on opposite sides

of each station ], ...do you say:

1 nozzle = 1 occupant, ...a sub-compact vehicle

1 nozzle = 2 occupants, ...a compact vehicle

1 nozzle = 4+ occupants, ...a mid-size vehicle

1 nozzle = 6+ occupants, ...a small mini-van

1 nozzle = 8+ occupants, ...a mid-size mini-van

1 nozzle = 10 + occupants, ...a larger sized van

1 nozzle = up to 16+ occupants, ...a [ typical ] van used to transport senior citizens

1 nozzle = ?? occupants for mass transit bus

1 nozzle = ?? occupants for a chartered bus

Table 1004.1.2 - Occupant Loads for the "M" designation [ 1 per 300 sq. ft. ] ??

other ??

Thanks !

FWIW, ...this topic ranks right up there with "attic stairs" ! :mrgreen:



& . . . . . &

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Perfect place for one of those $1/2 million Portland Loo bowel evacuation extravaganzas.

Brent.

 

[Msradell]

The design that was submitted for an unmanned station would be required to be manned in order to comply with ADA, this will require a restroom.

Not really because it would fall under the first bullet point about operating on a remote control basis.

 

[kilitact]

Not really because it would fall under the first bullet point about operating on a remote control basis.

Provide refueling assistance upon the request of an individual with a disability. A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee, but is encouraged to do so, if feasible.

First bullet point requires a single employee.

 

[Mark K]

You cannot enforce ADA. You can enforce any aspects of ADA that your state or jurisdiction had adopted as part of the building code.

Consider a city park with a small parking lot with possibly a small canopy. A city employee will spend a few hours a day maintaining the park. Does this require a public toilet? What if the parks department doesn't want to provide the toilet how far are you willing to go?

 

[RickAstoria]

2009 Oregon Structural Specialty Code.

This is similar to an ATM or other types of dispensing (coke, candy etc) machines being place outdoors under protective structures without seating areas or enclosed buildings and no employees on site. Do y'all require plumbing facilities for all of these?

I know this is a dated topic but sometimes to remind ourselves of these topics:

Group M application when it comes to gas stations refers to the "Mini-Mart" associated with the gas station. Toilets facilities are not required for the canopy. Since in Oregon, it's not self-service stations, the gas station as an associated structure besides the "canopy". They maybe as small as a simple gas attendant "counter" inside a small structure with probably a small and I mean small unisex bathroom which may sometimes also sell cigarette packs.

However, in other more elaborate gas stations, often associated with a mini-mart (convenience store) to a full out store like Safeway, Fred Meyers, Costco, Walmart and other big box stores.

Often those facilities are Group M and will require bathrooms. As for whether bathrooms are available for public use or not is another discussion all together.

 

[mark handler]

As I have always Stated Be carful of any information you get from the internet here and ever where. verify.

 

[ICE]

Speaking of architects, I saw brudgers logged in today. I wonder if he belongs to the forum these assassins came from. It is fancy. Hanging out there could give one a false sense of self-worth.

Oh and Rick, I saw your avatar and for a moment I felt like picking on you myself.

 

[conarb]

Speaking of architects, I saw brudgers logged in today. I wonder if he belongs to the forum these assassins came from. It is fancy. Hanging out there could give one a false sense of self-worth.

Oh and Rick, I saw your avatar and for a moment I felt like picking on you myself.

Tiger:

Why do you call them "assassins"? I too remember Rick's prior postings that continually appeared long-winded and usually just defensive of unlicensed building designers. I also wonder how he became a moderator.

 

[ICE]

Well conarb it appears that they came to slam Rick and not much else.

 

[RickAstoria]

yep. brud-g

Tiger:

Why do you call them "assassins"? I too remember Rick's prior postings that continually appeared long-winded and usually just defensive of unlicensed building designers. I also wonder how he became a moderator.

That is something that was done a long time ago like when they established this forum (on the old software). I am not the only moderator. There are plenty of people here.

 

[jar546]

They are officially gone. Zero tolerance for this BS

 

[RickAstoria]

I wouldn't remove Brudgers as he hadn't done anything in particular.

 

[conarb]

They are officially gone. Zero tolerance for this BS

Jeff:

Who are they, architects?

 

[jar546]

Jeff:

Who are they, architects?

At least one of them is. Brudgers was not one of them unless he signed up under another name, then I guess so.

 

[RickAstoria]

They maybe architects but this is not an architect vs non-architect issue. If they want to talk about the codes and stuff like that versus attacking a person's character. So damn what, I'm not a licensed architect.