steveray
SAWHORSE
In those assembly areas...do you also post the design live load? 1603.3 2003 IBC
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Posting of Occupant Load
- Thread starter righter101
- Start date
MarkRandall
Silver Member
RJJ,
I think I've made my point and this will will most likely be my last comment on this topic. It doesn't really matter whether it's co-workers or clients stepping into my office and likewise with the conference room. If you allocate 49 occupants to the conference room (even though area dictated 38 occupants), you've already allocated that occupant load. Most of the time those occupants are going to be from within the building somewhere else plus clients from outside the business, but it doesn't matter, you could loan out that room to say a neighboring business and have 49 occupants from outside the business and still have adequate exiting in case of emergency.
Thanks JBI for posting the relevant code sections.
I think I've made my point and this will will most likely be my last comment on this topic. It doesn't really matter whether it's co-workers or clients stepping into my office and likewise with the conference room. If you allocate 49 occupants to the conference room (even though area dictated 38 occupants), you've already allocated that occupant load. Most of the time those occupants are going to be from within the building somewhere else plus clients from outside the business, but it doesn't matter, you could loan out that room to say a neighboring business and have 49 occupants from outside the business and still have adequate exiting in case of emergency.
Thanks JBI for posting the relevant code sections.
RJJ
Co-Founder
Mark I am not in disagreement!
Paul Sweet
SAWHORSE
You have to be sure that plumbing fixtures, as well as means of egress, are adequate before posting a higher occupant load, especially where visitors will be present.
JBI
REGISTERED
"...permitted to be increased from that number established for the occupancies in Table 1004.1.1, provided that all other requirements of the code are also met based on such modified number ..."
TimNY
REGISTERED
I would figure the load on what the use of the space is. If it is an assembly use with tables and chairs, it's 1 per 15. If it's standing only (eg wine tasting) it's 1 per 5.
A 15x15 room (size of a bedroom) will hold 4 tables with 4 people at each table (-1)-- 15 people. I would not post an occupant load at 1 per 5 of 45 people. How can you safely exit 45 people around 4 tables and 16 chairs from a room the size of a bedroom?
If the plans called for the room to have no tables or chairs, not a problem. But I think the load should be calculated on the conditions that exist.
I would also say that the OL is based on the greater of number-by-table or substantiation by the design professional.
Limiting occupancy based on the exiting is backwards. If the occupancy exceeds the exits, they need more exits.
Do you limit the occupancy to avoid a fire sprinkler requirement? Or a panic bar?
I've been down this road... thankfully NY has a "means of egress for existing buildings" chapter.
A 15x15 room (size of a bedroom) will hold 4 tables with 4 people at each table (-1)-- 15 people. I would not post an occupant load at 1 per 5 of 45 people. How can you safely exit 45 people around 4 tables and 16 chairs from a room the size of a bedroom?
If the plans called for the room to have no tables or chairs, not a problem. But I think the load should be calculated on the conditions that exist.
I would also say that the OL is based on the greater of number-by-table or substantiation by the design professional.
Limiting occupancy based on the exiting is backwards. If the occupancy exceeds the exits, they need more exits.
Do you limit the occupancy to avoid a fire sprinkler requirement? Or a panic bar?
I've been down this road... thankfully NY has a "means of egress for existing buildings" chapter.
pwood
REGISTERED
tim,
existing building with one exit and no where to add another(physical restraints). there is one thousand square feet and the owner has a band play and 70 people are crammed in there like sardines. a fight breaks out and people are injured and the cops have a helluva time restoring peace. they want to avoid this in the future. if you are the ahj and fire marshall would you consider posting the maximum occupants for the one exit and "B" occupancy? a$$ backwards? sure, but effective!
existing building with one exit and no where to add another(physical restraints). there is one thousand square feet and the owner has a band play and 70 people are crammed in there like sardines. a fight breaks out and people are injured and the cops have a helluva time restoring peace. they want to avoid this in the future. if you are the ahj and fire marshall would you consider posting the maximum occupants for the one exit and "B" occupancy? a$$ backwards? sure, but effective!
TimNY
REGISTERED
pwood,
Luckily I never had that problem; hopefully will never have that problem. So it is easy for me to say what I would do.. but who knows.
What I think I would do (keep in mind we have some added wording in NY which would make it easier).. Calculate the OL at 70 people. Tell the owner he needs an additional exit per "Means of Egress for Existing Buildings", or he can partition a space off as storage, souvenir sales, a lounge room.. whatever.. to get the OL below 50, or apply for a variance from the State (fat chance after RI). I would not issue an occupancy sign for 70 because the space cannot accommodate them.
At a night check the sections cited would be not enough exits (FC1019.1), unlawful occupancy (FC107.4), failure of door to swing out (FC1008.1.2).. anything that would deal with too many people.
Next would be a referral to the SLA and recommendation that the municipality does not endorse the renewal of their liquor license.
A call to the health department to determine if the sanitary system is adequate for the occupant load.
If it is clearly an unsafe condition you can move to the penal law.
I don't think a sign will change anything. Enforcement, yes.
Is this a new occupancy (I realize existing building)? When did the occupancy increase to 70 people?
Luckily I never had that problem; hopefully will never have that problem. So it is easy for me to say what I would do.. but who knows.
What I think I would do (keep in mind we have some added wording in NY which would make it easier).. Calculate the OL at 70 people. Tell the owner he needs an additional exit per "Means of Egress for Existing Buildings", or he can partition a space off as storage, souvenir sales, a lounge room.. whatever.. to get the OL below 50, or apply for a variance from the State (fat chance after RI). I would not issue an occupancy sign for 70 because the space cannot accommodate them.
At a night check the sections cited would be not enough exits (FC1019.1), unlawful occupancy (FC107.4), failure of door to swing out (FC1008.1.2).. anything that would deal with too many people.
Next would be a referral to the SLA and recommendation that the municipality does not endorse the renewal of their liquor license.
A call to the health department to determine if the sanitary system is adequate for the occupant load.
If it is clearly an unsafe condition you can move to the penal law.
I don't think a sign will change anything. Enforcement, yes.
Is this a new occupancy (I realize existing building)? When did the occupancy increase to 70 people?
pwood
REGISTERED
tim,
it was a coffee shop 30 occupants, became a sandwich shop with tables and chairs for 30. one night they hired a band and all hell broke loose. it became an "A" occupancy in one fell swoop! the owner promised not to have more than 49 people and post the occupant load after some gentle persuasion! no problems since!
it was a coffee shop 30 occupants, became a sandwich shop with tables and chairs for 30. one night they hired a band and all hell broke loose. it became an "A" occupancy in one fell swoop! the owner promised not to have more than 49 people and post the occupant load after some gentle persuasion! no problems since!
TimNY
REGISTERED
sounds good 