PVC Plumbing Replacing Cast Iron - Firestopping

[jar546]

There seems to be a movement to replace cast iron pipes in high-rise buildings with PVC, where it penetrates between rated floors; sometimes, PVC traps are attempted to be used in place of cast iron traps. Are there any products out there that can be used to make this type of installation compliant? This, of course, is assuming the space is not a plenum space, then you can't use PVC at all.

 

[ICE]

There's more to picking the right material than meets the eye. On new construction it is up to the architect to specify. On retrofit work it falls on the contractor. Perhaps Hilti can recommend a solution.

CP 643 N firestop collars - Firestop collars, wraps and bandages - Hilti USA

BS and UL compliant, FM approved retrofit firestop collar to help create a fire and smoke barrier around existing pipe penetrations

www.hilti.com

Sealants, sprays and coatings

Find firestop sealants, sprays, foams, and coatings, designed to ehance soundproofing and limit smoke spread in cable, pipe, and mixed penetrations

www.hilti.com

 

[jar546]

That would have to be a long vertical part of the trap,

 

[TheCommish]

I would treat them like any other pentation of a rated slab, mat be this product

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40065439/

 

[steveray]

@Firestop Guy

 

[steveray]

There seems to be a movement to replace cast iron pipes in high-rise buildings with PVC, where it penetrates between rated floors; sometimes, PVC traps are attempted to be used in place of cast iron traps. Are there any products out there that can be used to make this type of installation compliant? This, of course, is assuming the space is not a plenum space, then you can't use PVC at all.

Short answer is yes, be it wrap strips or whatever…a better answer should be along shortly.

 

[Gregg Harris]

There seems to be a movement to replace cast iron pipes in high-rise buildings with PVC, where it penetrates between rated floors; sometimes, PVC traps are attempted to be used in place of cast iron traps. Are there any products out there that can be used to make this type of installation compliant? This, of course, is assuming the space is not a plenum space, then you can't use PVC at all.

Has to be a rated complete system, and it is different for "foam core" and "scheduled 40/80

 

[Firestop Guy]

For firestopping there are many UL Certified systems for use with PVC pipes in open (DWV) or closed systems. Keep in mind that the firestop materials do not have any rating. Only the full systems have the required F and T ratings.

What system is appropriate depends on the type of floor assembly; concrete over metal deck, cast-in-place concrete (flat deck), or UL series G500 "Hambro" type floor-ceiling assemblies. The other key factors in choosing a system are the size of the pipe, whether there is a coupling or hub in the plane of the opening, and is there any insulation on the pipe and whether it will it run through the opening.

On metal deck and flat deck with DWV that is 3" or 4" diameter the systems typically require either intumescent wrap strips installed IN the annular space or intumescent firestop collars installed on the bottom side. FA 2025 is a common system requiring a collar for metal deck assemblies. FA 2067 is requires just wrap strip IN the annular space but the annular space minimum and maximums are exacting.

For UL design series G500 floor-ceiling assemblies, the systems require the opening to be protected at the ceiling level and at the floor level. As with metal and flat deck, there are systems with just wrap strips and systems with collars. The openings at the floor level will require just a gun grade sealant. FE 2027 is an example of that type of collar system.

 

[Firestop Guy]

There's more to picking the right material than meets the eye. On new construction it is up to the architect to specify. On retrofit work it falls on the contractor. Perhaps Hilti can recommend a solution.

CP 643 N firestop collars - Firestop collars, wraps and bandages - Hilti USA

BS and UL compliant, FM approved retrofit firestop collar to help create a fire and smoke barrier around existing pipe penetrations

www.hilti.com

Sealants, sprays and coatings

Find firestop sealants, sprays, foams, and coatings, designed to ehance soundproofing and limit smoke spread in cable, pipe, and mixed penetrations

www.hilti.com

For new construction or reno the IBC requires in 714.4.1.2 that "Through penetrations shall be protected by an approved penetration firestop system installed as tested"...
The question is "what system meets my field condition?" not "what material can I use?" The system will dictate what material(s) can be used. There are three parts to every penetration firestop system:
1. The rated barrier - this is what carries the rating. Once there is a hole in it the rating is reduced to zero
2. The penetrating item - this is where firestopping gets complex very quickly. PVC melts away, cast-iron doesn't.
3. The material(s) - what the system requires can be very different for cast-iron versus PVC.
Combined, all three parts work together as a system to restore the rating of the barrier at the opening.

Architects might spec acceptable product manufacturers and a range of systems, but they cannot choose specific systems. There are too many variables they cannot foresee, and different installers will have favorite systems they are familiar with. Contractors may be able to decide what brand of firestop materials to use and then go on from there to select the systems they want to follow.

 

[Joe.B]

For CA (similar for other states that use the UPC as a model code) there's this:

701.2 Drainage Piping. Materials for drainage piping shall be in accordance with one of the referenced standards in Table 701.2 except that:

2. ABS and PVC DWV piping installations shall be installed in accordance with applicable standards referenced in Table 701.2 and the firestop protection requirements in the California Building Code. Except for individual single-family dwelling units, materials exposed within ducts or plenums shall have a flame-spread index of not more than 25 and a smoke-developed index of not more than 50, where tested in accordance with ASTM E84 or UL 723. Plastic piping installed in plenums shall be tested in accordance with all requirements of ASTM E84 or UL 723. Mounting methods, supports and sample sizes of materials for testing that are not specified in ASTM E84 or UL 723 shall be prohibited.
(a) [HCD 1 & HCD 2] ABS and PVC installations are limited to not more than two stories of areas of residential accommodation.
(6) [OSHPD 1,2, 3, 4 & 5] ABS and PVC installations are not allowed.

 

[ICE]

shall be protected by an approved penetration firestop system

The key word there is approved. Approved by the only entity that can approve anything which is the AHJ. If you are the AHJ, how you get there is up to you. For myself, it starts with the other side of the counter. I ask for verification and installation instructions. I am also unique in Southern California.

The general attitude is that as long as the caulk is red it is probably sufficient. The gap being filled can be from 0" to ∞". After all, what are the odds that it will ever matter. And if it does mater some day, will this one pile of red caulk make or break the day? Besides all of that, Home Depot sells this stuff just for this purpose and it ain't cheap.

 

[steveray]

Architects might spec acceptable product manufacturers and a range of systems, but they cannot choose specific systems. There are too many variables they cannot foresee, and different installers will have favorite systems they are familiar with. Contractors may be able to decide what brand of firestop materials to use and then go on from there to select the systems they want to follow.

Exactly....and they can save a ton of money if they are informed ahead of time.... Like a "just caulking" detail vs. strips and collars when they make their holes too big....

 

[Firestop Guy]

The key word there is approved. Approved by the only entity that can approve anything which is the AHJ. If you are the AHJ, how you get there is up to you. For myself, it starts with the other side of the counter. I ask for verification and installation instructions. I am also unique in Southern California.

The general attitude is that as long as the caulk is red it is probably sufficient. The gap being filled can be from 0" to ∞". After all, what are the odds that it will ever matter. And if it does mater some day, will this one pile of red caulk make or break the day? Besides all of that, Home Depot sells this stuff just for this purpose and it ain't cheap.

I don't hesitate to agree that the "general attitude" is that red is right, and I don't hesitate to say that the general attitude could not be more wrong, and the code has been clear on that for 25 years. As to what are the odds it will ever matter? Ask the ten people who died in the Gabriel House fire in Fall River, MA in July. Sprinklers activated but could not sufficiently suppress the fire which was fueled by an oxygen condenser. The barriers and firestops were deficient to the point that there was major smoke spread to all three floors of the building instead of the fire being contained to the room of origin as the code intends. As for the price of firestop materials not being cheap, it sure is less than even one funeral.

 

[steveray]

I don't hesitate to agree that the "general attitude" is that red is right, and I don't hesitate to say that the general attitude could not be more wrong, and the code has been clear on that for 25 years. As to what are the odds it will ever matter? Ask the ten people who died in the Gabriel House fire in Fall River, MA in July. Sprinklers activated but could not sufficiently suppress the fire which was fueled by an oxygen condenser. The barriers and firestops were deficient to the point that there was major smoke spread to all three floors of the building instead of the fire being contained to the room of origin as the code intends. As for the price of firestop materials not being cheap, it sure is less than even one funeral.

And hopefully everyone gets sued or arrested and jailed for manslaughter and it affects change as that is what it is going to take at this point....

 

[Firestop Guy]

Sad but true. I know there are multiple suits filed against the owner of the facility and the company that did the sprinkler testing the week before the fire. I have not seen the investigation report yet so I don't know if they looked at the barriers and firestops.

 

[ICE]

As to what are the odds it will ever matter? Ask the ten people who died in the Gabriel House fire in Fall River, MA in July.

That reinforces the sentiment that the odds are slim.