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Receptacles and Tubs

Re: Receptacles and Tubs

globe trekker said:
Chris ( and others ),Would Section E3908.2 apply? Just put a weatherproof cover on there

and their compliant. Not safe mind you, but code compliant! :eek:

.
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Did you mean E3902.8?

If so, that section is for receptacles installed in a damp location and would not supersede E3902.11 which is specific for bathtub and shower space.

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

"A receptacle shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall."

I think there are two ways to break this sentence down...

I believe in raiders' mind it is 'bathtub'.... or... 'shower stall', limiting application to either the tub itself or a shower and its' stall.

I believe in Mules' mind (and I tend to agree with him) it is 'bathtub stall' ... or... 'shower stall'. Broadening the application, but still reasonable. It IS about safety after all.

Grammatically, I believe either interpretation is valid. As a practical matter, I believe it is also the intent of the section to not allow the situation shown in the OPs picture.

Back in the day of free standing cast iron tubs there was usually open space between the wall and the tub, less opportunity for a small appliance to fall into the (full) tub. Very few tub rims are right up against a wall these days. In raiders' interpretation almost any tub could have outlets above them as long as the actual rim of the tub is 1" away from the wall. Most 'tub only' units I am seeing are jacuzzi tubs that have 3"-6" minimum ledge around them and are enclosed on two to three sides with walls. With the more current designs that open space has been replaced by a 'shelf' that the unaware consumer sees as a great place to put the radio/mini TV/i-pod/whatever. JMHO
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Chris

Correct, but the specific requirement is to not located receptacles within or directly over the bathtub.

fail! who would put a receptacle in a bathtub or directly above the bathtub on the ceiling? semantics? space is the key word here.
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

pwood said:
fail! who would put a receptacle in a bathtub or directly above the bathtub on the ceiling? semantics? space is the key word here.
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Yes, semantics.

So, please define "space" for me so I know how far away from the edge of a tub I may place a receptacle so it is not in "space".

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Ask the building official in whatever jurisdiction you are working in. In our jurisdiction, the receptacle in the picture is within the space of the bathtub.

SECTION R104

DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE

BUILDING OFFICIAL

R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized

and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building

official shall have the authority to render interpretations of

this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify

the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies

and procedures shall be in conformance with the intent and

purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not

have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided

for in this code.

379188517.jpg
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise... OOOOOPS! Wrong channel!

Read my last post raider1...

Edit: Got to keep your names straight. Min&Max is commenting on another thread... DOH!
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

John Drobysh said:
Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise... OOOOOPS! Wrong channel!Read my last post Min&Max...
Click to expand...
Thats one of my favorite shows. :D

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Raider1,

See that blue tape on the wall, that's an arrow pointing towards the red line. The outlet needs to be beyond the red line. Can we dare say mirror cut or is that the contractors call?
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Pcinspector1 said:
Raider1,See that blue tape on the wall, that's an arrow pointing towards the red line. The outlet needs to be beyond the red line. Can we dare say mirror cut or is that the contractors call?
Click to expand...
Yes I do see the red line.

Please show me a definitive code section that requires the receptacle to be beyond that line.

As I have said before the way I read 406.8© is that the receptacle can't be installed within or directly over the bathtub.

I don't particularly like the location of the receptacle in the picture, but IMHO it is code compliant.

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

I think that I might just submit a code proposal for the 2014 NEC to clarify whether or not "stall" applys to bathtub.

This has been a very interesting thread.

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Ok. I have stayed away from this one because I really don't like the location of the receptacle either. However, IMHO there is no such thing as a bathtub stall.

E3903.10 is very specific as to the zone measurements regarding luminaires, if it was the code writers intent to keep the receptacles out of that zone, it should have been written to that effect.

Under current code language, I would have to pass the installation. I don't see a receptacle within or directly over a bathtub.

GPE
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

GPE,

E3902.11 Bathtub and shower space.

Could you see it as a bathtub space?
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Mule,

Good question. I guess a bathtub space would be measured vertically from the inside of the tub rim. A shower space would be measured at the enclosing walls.

GPE
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

gpe,

Why only "measured vertically from the inside of the tub rim "? Won't the water [ or damp substance ]

potentially go outside the vertically measured dimensions of the tub rim only? Ever see kids playing in

a tub even half full of water. The water goes everywhere! :D

Realistically, vertical and horizontal dimensions need to be addressed, ...or as ' Mule ' has stated, the

BO could make that interpretation.

However, for discussion purposes, and clarity, I agree that some sort of dimensions should be placed

on the Section E3902.11.
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

John,

What pharmaceuticals are you using... :D The "Starship Enterprise... " That's funny! :lol:

.
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

However, for discussion purposes, and clarity, I agree that some sort of dimensions should be placedon the Section E3902.11.
Click to expand...
The code making panel seems to disagree with you, as evidenced by the rejection of the proposal that I quoted.

Ever see kids playing ina tub even half full of water. The water goes everywhere!
Click to expand...
Same could be said for the bathroom sink ;)

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

What else could you plug into the tub outlet? Why stop with just one outlet use a quadeplex outlet and put a big screen TV above the tub and set the DVD on the vanity. "Scotty I need more power, eye, eye captin". :p
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Chris stated:

Same could be said for the bathroom sink ;)
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True enough, but not a lot of people bathe in the sink, for the most part.

So, ...in the future how are we going to remove that darned receptacle and to be able to reference code language to support us?

.
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

globe trekker said:
So, ...in the future how are we going to remove that darned receptacle and to be able to reference code language to support us?.
Click to expand...
Make a code change proposal.

I really think I will make a proposal to clarify whether or not the term "stall" applies to the bathtub.

Chris
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

As inspectors we are inspecting for saftey issues looking at the receptacle as shown how much safer is it moved six inches to the left outside of the space suggested in my opinion no safer. Looking from a saftey point I see no reason to require the receptacle to be moved and splitting hairs over the wording of the code as saftey is the main reason for inspections.
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

georgia plans exam said:
Ok. I have stayed away from this one because I really don't like the location of the receptacle either. However, IMHO there is no such thing as a bathtub stall.E3903.10 is very specific as to the zone measurements regarding luminaires, if it was the code writers intent to keep the receptacles out of that zone, it should have been written to that effect.

Under current code language, I would have to pass the installation. I don't see a receptacle within or directly over a bathtub.

GPE
Click to expand...
I would agree. It is my understanding that the receptacles are required to be GFI protected and GFI are suppose to trip when expose to a ground fault such as the radio falling into the tub. The luminaires are not required to be GFI protected, which is the reason for the zone measurements.

Oldman
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

Adding a wrinkle or two to this thread, (a little bathtub humor). :) What if this outlet was on the house plans that you do a review on. Would you pass it?

How may outlets would you allow and where could they be placed? :)
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

1. I would pass it. Plan review uses the same code books as field inspection.

2. They could install as many receptacles as the wanted as long as they were not in prohibited locations.

GPE
 
Re: Receptacles and Tubs

So I believe this is one of those agree to disagree things???? In my opinion, and some others, this type of installations isn't allowed, and others say it's okay!

All in the interpretation of the individual.
 
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