School Time-Out Room

[Codegeek]

Sorry for the rant but nothing gets me more than the subject of my childs welfare, and the public school system would love to see my kid on welfare.

No apology needed. We need people like you to speak up to help bring back the moral compass this country has lost.

 

[GBrackins]

GB,

thanks for the post. I have been remiss in keeping up with current events as my kids are grown. Now that I'm having my first grandchild in a couple of months I see I had better pay closer attention.

 

[Builder Bob]

cda - good links.... however, they are the DOE's responsibility to enforce and interpret their own "Risk Management"

Do I agree, personally no...... does the code allow it -

Yes.

ALSO === Not all kids in public schools are bad - the one bad appale which led to this discussion quickly overshadows the 99 % that are excelling and becoming an asset to this country.

Besides, if kids are not exposed to the bad, what are they going to do when they are adults and have no clue as to how to handle the issues in society today -

 

[steveray]

1008.1.8.3 Locks and latches.

Locks and latches shall be permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the following exists:

1. Places of detention or restraint.

2. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in churches, the main exterior door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:

2.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked,

2.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1 inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background,

2.3. The use of the key-operated locking device is revokable by the building official for due cause.

3. Where egress doors are used in pairs, approved automatic flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided that the door leaf having the automatic flush bolts has no doorknob or surface-mounted hardware.

4. Doors from individual dwelling or sleeping units of Group R occupancies having an occupant load of 10 or less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable from the inside without the use of a key or tool.

 

[Sifu]

I wish I didn't have to but I need to resurrect this thread concerning time out locks (not the good school/bad school debate).

I have an elementary school that is undergoing an addition and remodel. Part of it is to reconfigure some interior spaces, and install new door hardware throughout. One of the new rooms is labeled as an office, but the hardware listed is a time out lock. Schlage ND45. Reading various information, including this thread, hasn't eased my concerns. There is just this hardware, in the specifications. No sequence of operations, no mention of supervision. Just an obscure door in a corridor. Unless there is more information I can't see how locking the room from the outside can fly. Interested in thoughts and/or experience with this from my esteemed colleagues. I have never encountered this before.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

I wish I didn't have to but I need to resurrect this thread concerning time out locks (not the good school/bad school debate).

I have an elementary school that is undergoing an addition and remodel. Part of it is to reconfigure some interior spaces, and install new door hardware throughout. One of the new rooms is labeled as an office, but the hardware listed is a time out lock. Schlage ND45. Reading various information, including this thread, hasn't eased my concerns. There is just this hardware, in the specifications. No sequence of operations, no mention of supervision. Just an obscure door in a corridor. Unless there is more information I can't see how locking the room from the outside can fly. Interested in thoughts and/or experience with this from my esteemed colleagues. I have never encountered this before.

Canucklehead code would call this an "impeded egress" zone.
Like in a jail or a dementia ward.
Very strict requirements.


If you've got code for jails, maybe that's the starting point?

 

[Sifu]

We do have codes for jails, "I "occupancies. As far as I know we don't treat a school as a jail, but who knows today? I don't see anything up to and including the '24 IBC that would allow this in a school.

 

[Inspector 102]

SiFu - you indicate locking the door from the outside. If someone from the inside can egress, then the door can be locked from the outside corridor. Is this a special lock to limit access for certain staff? If egress is prohibited or limited from the inside, totally different rules. Curious to hear opinions on this one also.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

We do have codes for jails, "I "occupancies. As far as I know we don't treat a school as a jail, but who knows today? I don't see anything up to and including the '24 IBC that would allow this in a school.

An individual is detained, likely against their will, in a room from which they are unable to exit/egress without the actions of an external agency.

That describes a jail cell. It also seems to describe this "time out" room.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks ....

 

[Sifu]

An individual is detained, likely against their will, in a room from which they are unable to exit/egress without the actions of an external agency.

That describes a jail cell. It also seems to describe this "time out" room.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks ....

I see the point, however if our code says all doors must be readily openable from the egress side unless there are specific conditions present, and only in specific occupancy classifications, I can't decide it is a duck if the code specifically excludes it from being a duck. I am surprised that there is not even a mention of this condition. If they truly want it to be considered, I would think there would be some operational sequences that they could propose, such as dropping on fire alarm, constantly attended, signage, etc. There is none of that. In fact, on my initial review I didn't even see it because it was buried among a hundred other replacement hardware sets in the specifications.

This is an old thread, and I know much has changed in the school security debate, but for special locking arrangements in group E occupancies it specifically requires the door to be openable from within the room.

 

[ICE]

Bring back corporal punishment in schools and you would not need a "time out" room

JMHO

We got our beatings in the hallway.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I wrote the specs and worked on the construction documents for many a school, and until this discussion I had never heard of a timeout lock function. However, it is a thing -- and IMHO it's not allowed in educational or child care occupancies.

Heavy Duty Cylindrical Lever Locks | Schlage ND45 | Timeout Function

Buy the Schlage ND45 timeout cylindrical lever lock at economical prices from us TODAY! This high performance lock is perfect for retrofit applications.

locksandsafes.com

Scroll down a bit and you find this:

Function​

Schlage ND45 Timeout Function | ND 45 Timeout Function | ND-45 Timeout Function


• Caretaker side: Pushing and holding button will lock inside lever (detention side) until released. Lever always retracts latch.


• Detention side: Lever retracts latch unless outside button is depressed. Vandlgard allows inside spindle to disengage from latch when locked.

So, in a nutshell, this lock CAN be locked so as to prevent egress from the occupied side. That's not allowed in schools or day care centers. It's only allowed, under certain conditions, in I-3 occupancies.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

I am surprised that there is not even a mention of this condition. If they truly want it to be considered, I would think there would be some operational sequences that they could propose, such as dropping on fire alarm, constantly attended, signage, etc. There is none of that.

Codes are prescriptive. If there's no pathway to make what they are proposing legal, then it isn't.

So, in a nutshell, this lock CAN be locked so as to prevent egress from the occupied side. That's not allowed in schools or day care centers. It's only allowed, under certain conditions, in I-3 occupancies.

What he/she said.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

For what it's worth, in researching my response to the question regarding time-out locks, I looked up the list of industry standard lock functions. (Yes, there is one -- so that specifiers and hardware consultants can specify locks by function number and all manufacturers and suppliers will be able to know what's needed without regard to brand.) The standard list does not include this time out lock function.

Understanding The 20+ Lock Functions

We explain differences in lock functions and the more than 20 codes used to define them.

ipvm.com

 

[Sifu]

Update: I contacted the architect, who will be revising this to be a standard entrance lock, free egress from the inside.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Update: I contacted the architect, who will be revising this to be a standard entrance lock, free egress from the inside.

Did he/she have any explanation as to why they thought it might in any way be a good idea to effectively imprison a child in an escape-proof cell in violation of any building or fire code that has existed for the past 50 or more years?

I would very much like to hear that explanation.

 

[ICE]

Update: I contacted the architect, who will be revising this to be a standard entrance lock, free egress from the inside.

I am a little slower than usual this morning, I overslept and haven't yet had coffee. But I just don't get this. The brat can open the door from inside the kid jail and the the teacher can open the door from outside .... where does the lock come into play?

I did get that the kid jail is now called a "time out" room. What's next, the penalty box at the hockey rink is now a "self-reflection space"?

The door should absolutely lock the kid in and there should be a hole for the chocolate milk container... or CS.... you know, depending.....

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Update: I contacted the architect, who will be revising this to be a standard entrance lock, free egress from the inside.

Seems like a poor decision. An entrance lock can be locked from the inside, meaning that a kid in the room could lock the hardware to exclude the teacher. I can't help thinking that either a standard classroom lock or a storeroom lock would be a better choice.

 

[ICE]

building or fire code

Criminal Code

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Criminal Code

I think this project was described as a school (Use Group E), not a prison (Use Group I-3).

 

[ICE]

An entrance lock can be locked from the inside, meaning that a teacher in the room could lock the hardware to exclude the kid.

There I fixed it for you .... now it's an escape room. I like that... of course I watch FOX News.

 

[Sifu]

Did he/she have any explanation as to why they thought it might in any way be a good idea to effectively imprison a child in an escape-proof cell in violation of any building or fire code that has existed for the past 50 or more years?

I would very much like to hear that explanation.

No, they only said there were "discussions" about that but that they had abandoned the time-out idea in favor of an office, which is what the plans labeled the room, which is why I didn't catch it on my first review.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

But you caught it. Good catch.

I'm pretty certain I'm the first plan reviewer in my town who ever looks at door hardware. If we get a door schedule at all, it often doesn't include the hardware schedule. Or it lists locks as "lock." Not helpful.

 

[Sifu]

For what it's worth, in researching my response to the question regarding time-out locks, I looked up the list of industry standard lock functions. (Yes, there is one -- so that specifiers and hardware consultants can specify locks by function number and all manufacturers and suppliers will be able to know what's needed without regard to brand.) The standard list does not include this time out lock function.

Understanding The 20+ Lock Functions

We explain differences in lock functions and the more than 20 codes used to define them.

ipvm.com

Interesting article. I did some digging and found this, which will be very helpful to me. I went through the entire hardware spec and identified each lock then went looking for the function. I had to try several wholesale websites before I found one that identified the F codes. Even the MFR websites didn't have them or buried them deep inside somewhere I didn't have the patience to find. Seems like it would be beneficial to everyone to provide the F code in the hardware schedules.