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Section R308.4 in the IRC
- Thread starter north star
- Start date
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
I agree that a barrier is more that a homesprun device.
I think the use of the word barrier without any clear definitions leaves it up to the code official (s) interpretation. I think riff and raff could debate the interpretation of this word until the cows come home.
I agree that a barrier is more that a homesprun device.
I think the use of the word barrier without any clear definitions leaves it up to the code official (s) interpretation. I think riff and raff could debate the interpretation of this word until the cows come home.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
Anything else is not in compliance with the building code.
The code official's interpretation should be in keeping with the common usage.kilitact said:I agree that a barrier is more that a homesprun device. I think the use of the word barrier without any clear definitions leaves it up to the code official (s) interpretation. I think riff and raff could debate the interpretation of this word until the cows come home.
Anything else is not in compliance with the building code.
pwood
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Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
it has to do with egress! people in a hurry to get out the smokey building may crash thru windows that they think are the doors due to the close proximity,therefore the safety glass requirement!
it has to do with egress! people in a hurry to get out the smokey building may crash thru windows that they think are the doors due to the close proximity,therefore the safety glass requirement!
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
Clearly there are a number of reasons why safety glazing might be beneficial, and a number of ways to "barrier" glazing. I quoted ICC commentary earlier in this thread, there isn't just one correct answer.
Hey wait a minute,
Why in figure R308.4(6) is the right sidelight perpendicular to the door wall not required to have safety glazing?
And why in figure R308.4(4) isn't the right side window perpendicular to the door wall labeled as requiring safety glazing?
These drawings are not scaled properly.
That's why glazing four feet or higher off the floor needs to be safety glazing?pwood said:
Clearly there are a number of reasons why safety glazing might be beneficial, and a number of ways to "barrier" glazing. I quoted ICC commentary earlier in this thread, there isn't just one correct answer.
Hey wait a minute,
Why in figure R308.4(6) is the right sidelight perpendicular to the door wall not required to have safety glazing?
And why in figure R308.4(4) isn't the right side window perpendicular to the door wall labeled as requiring safety glazing?
These drawings are not scaled properly.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
That's precisely why there IS the barrier exception. The wall or barrier prevents impact, whether it be from the door, or something else, oh, say like a human. A door stop is not similar to a wall. The door stop solves part of the problem. The least important part.
Would a horizontal bar installed as allowed in other sections suffice? An argument could even be made for "no", otherwise the code would allow it as an exception for glazing near doors as well. However, I would find the horizontal bar more palatable than a door stop.
If that were true, then there would not be the barrier exception.brudgers said:
That's precisely why there IS the barrier exception. The wall or barrier prevents impact, whether it be from the door, or something else, oh, say like a human. A door stop is not similar to a wall. The door stop solves part of the problem. The least important part.
Would a horizontal bar installed as allowed in other sections suffice? An argument could even be made for "no", otherwise the code would allow it as an exception for glazing near doors as well. However, I would find the horizontal bar more palatable than a door stop.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
How about installing bollards on each side of the doorway?
I believe that some builders would go to just about any length and/or expense to avoid submitting to minimum code requirements. :mrgreen:
Uncle Bob
How about installing bollards on each side of the doorway?
I believe that some builders would go to just about any length and/or expense to avoid submitting to minimum code requirements. :mrgreen:
Uncle Bob
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
Peach said:
While I'm not a big fan of ICC commentaries, I do agree with the quote from Heaven (bold and underlines added by me): "Safety Glass
To prevent serious injury from shards of breaking glass, the IRC requires safety glazing at 11 specific glazing locations as subject to impact by people. For example, glass in doors and adjacent to doors has an increased likelihood of accidental breakage due to actions to open and close the door and the movement of the door itself."
"Actions to open and close the door" (in addition to the movement of the door itself) could mean many things, including ( please indulge me on the compounding of hypotheses): emergency personnel ingress, panic egress, careless delivery men carrying your new Barcalounger, me trying to fumble with the door on an icy, windy day carrying my new distributor and timing light for my Chevy, or an arkitect going through the door with his arms full of T-squares, triangles, and electric erasers. In none of these cases would a door stop be an effective barrier to impact by people.
Peach said:
Pwood said:
It's both, in addition to door impact.
While I'm not a big fan of ICC commentaries, I do agree with the quote from Heaven (bold and underlines added by me): "Safety Glass
To prevent serious injury from shards of breaking glass, the IRC requires safety glazing at 11 specific glazing locations as subject to impact by people. For example, glass in doors and adjacent to doors has an increased likelihood of accidental breakage due to actions to open and close the door and the movement of the door itself."
"Actions to open and close the door" (in addition to the movement of the door itself) could mean many things, including ( please indulge me on the compounding of hypotheses): emergency personnel ingress, panic egress, careless delivery men carrying your new Barcalounger, me trying to fumble with the door on an icy, windy day carrying my new distributor and timing light for my Chevy, or an arkitect going through the door with his arms full of T-squares, triangles, and electric erasers. In none of these cases would a door stop be an effective barrier to impact by people.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
That's what we're talking about here; glazing in and near doors, right?
Uncle Bob said:
I weep for our profession.
They do when they are doors.brudgers said:
That's what we're talking about here; glazing in and near doors, right?
Uncle Bob said:
It's certainly not just limited to builders, and if you read some of the comments above, bollards aren't such a silly proposition. Comparatively speaking....
I weep for our profession.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
That's what we're talking about here; glazing in and near doors, right?
I think we all agree on safety glass for door glazing. we are talking about windows/glazing within the specified area around doors.
Now, consider this -- the code does not say "exterior doors", so are all of you "wall proponents" inspecting for safety glazing in windows which are within the specified dimensions of interior doors?
They do when they are doors.texasbo said:
That's what we're talking about here; glazing in and near doors, right?
I think we all agree on safety glass for door glazing. we are talking about windows/glazing within the specified area around doors.
Now, consider this -- the code does not say "exterior doors", so are all of you "wall proponents" inspecting for safety glazing in windows which are within the specified dimensions of interior doors?
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
Now, consider this -- the code does not say "exterior doors", so are all of you "wall proponents" inspecting for safety glazing in windows which are within the specified dimensions of interior doors?
You ask that like it's a frivolous concept. Are you not? Seriously?
I can't speak for "all of the wall proponents", and obviously, there's one person that is more than willing to accept a 1' tall planter box, but as for my jurisdiction, we certainly do.
I think we all agree on safety glass for door glazing. we are talking about windows/glazing within the specified area around doors.Heaven said:
Now, consider this -- the code does not say "exterior doors", so are all of you "wall proponents" inspecting for safety glazing in windows which are within the specified dimensions of interior doors?
You ask that like it's a frivolous concept. Are you not? Seriously?
I can't speak for "all of the wall proponents", and obviously, there's one person that is more than willing to accept a 1' tall planter box, but as for my jurisdiction, we certainly do.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
I weep for our profession.
The fact that this thread has even stooped to considering a doorstop or a foot tall planter as a permanent barrier makes me want to cry as well.
I thought this forum was for building code professionals, not for lazy and cheap contractors trying to find a way to twist the code. :evil:
This should be a simple no brainer, regardless of the reason that you put your hand through the window, you are more likely to do it when there is a door involved, and for that reason safety glazing is required.
The foot tall planter is more likely to trip you and send you through the window than to keep you from impacting the glass.
I weep for our profession.
The fact that this thread has even stooped to considering a doorstop or a foot tall planter as a permanent barrier makes me want to cry as well.
I thought this forum was for building code professionals, not for lazy and cheap contractors trying to find a way to twist the code. :evil:
This should be a simple no brainer, regardless of the reason that you put your hand through the window, you are more likely to do it when there is a door involved, and for that reason safety glazing is required.
The foot tall planter is more likely to trip you and send you through the window than to keep you from impacting the glass.
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
I have no reason to want this subject to become confrontational, I am here to learn but I only learn by reasoning out the "why" of something. So, if I am way of base with my viewpoint to date I am willing to change how I read and interpret the code.
How many of you lurkers read this to mean (permanent barrier = wall) in every location indicated in the code language? And that for instance, a window 4' off the finished floor on a wall perpendicular to an interior door but within 24" of the edge of the door is required to have safety glazing?
I'm really curious, please weight in ~
As an aside, I just had a house guest here for two weeks who is from Illinois. He asked me one day and I quote "why do the houses here have so many windows?". Maybe I know the answer now . . .
I have no reason to want this subject to become confrontational, I am here to learn but I only learn by reasoning out the "why" of something. So, if I am way of base with my viewpoint to date I am willing to change how I read and interpret the code.
How many of you lurkers read this to mean (permanent barrier = wall) in every location indicated in the code language? And that for instance, a window 4' off the finished floor on a wall perpendicular to an interior door but within 24" of the edge of the door is required to have safety glazing?
I'm really curious, please weight in ~
As an aside, I just had a house guest here for two weeks who is from Illinois. He asked me one day and I quote "why do the houses here have so many windows?". Maybe I know the answer now . . .
Re: Section R308.4 in the IRC
This is my opinion.
The door is not the reason for the safety glass. Glazing by a door is considered to be in a hazardous location. The only reason door swing comes into play is because this is the area most likely for someone to fall into. The reason for the safety glass is that in case of emergency, someone is trying to exit and trip and fall the glass would not come down on them chopping them to pieces.Heaven said:
This is my opinion.
