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Separation of exits

B

Big Mac

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Oct 22, 2009
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I tried to cut and paste a sketch from word but was not successful, so I will try to draw a word picture.

Portable classroom coach. 28' X 64'. The unit is devided equally into two classrooms having an occuapnt load of 45 each. The pair of classrooms are served by one deck, ramp and stairway. Once you have reached the exit from the individual classrooms, the exit is out one end only.

The exit doors from the individual classrooms onto the exit deck/ramp are probaly separated by a distanc eof approximately 6' from center to center. It seems to me that a situation that arrises whter fire, bomb, etc that blocks one of these exits would also block the other exit. In other words, possible up to 90 students trapped.

Any concerns here?
 
Sketch would help but I share your unease. Are you saying both exits are at an end where deck and ramp lead to grade?
 
Coug Dad said:
It sounds like two exits are required from the deck.
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I agree, one being an accessible ramp.

Pictures removed to stop confusion
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If understanding the layout described in the OP; I would not have any concern as long as the Egress Capacity for the ramp element and stair was compliant with the occupant load permitted for portables.
 
90 students, two exits, rerqured.TABLE 1021.1

1021.1.1 Exits maintained. The required number of exits from any story shall be maintained until arrival at grade or the public way.
 
so trailer divided in half each side has 45 occupant load capacity

each side has door directly to outside

said door has ramp to reach ground level

so each room only is required one exit

but each of those exits to the outside share same ramp

where is the problem??

if you say two exits are required, then each classroom would have to be designed so each can exit into each other, and out that clasrooms door
 
cda said:
so trailer divided in half each side has 45 occupant load capacityeach side has door directly to outside

said door has ramp to reach ground level

so each room only is required one exit

but each of those exits to the outside share same ramp

where is the problem??

if you say two exits are required, then each classroom would have to be designed so each can exit into each other, and out that clasrooms door
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Your scenario is not the same as the OP

The doors exit onto a exit balcony with ONE exit, a ramp
 
Mark your first picture has all of the exits merging at one point. How is two stairs and a ramp that arrive at grade at the same place any different than on to the deck?

The OP said they have a stairway and a ramp, not just a ramp.
 
Mark I take it to be like your top picture except they share one ramp

If that is the set up, I still say it is good to go

One exit required from each room

Each dumps directly to outside

One story trailer, just a littl off the ground
 
So what is the width of this exterior exit discharge path consiting of a deck, ramp and stair? I believe 44 inches would be the minimum.
 
The minimum landing size should be 60 in by 60 in if there is a change of direction to the ramp.

the width of the landing should also take in account the door swings

But all is moot without information
 
Mark is correct, the pictures he posted were not the scenario I had described, but I will build on those to expalin further. I have gotten some updated information.

The pictures that Mark posted showed exit doors from the classromms that were separated a considerable distance form each other. That is not the condition that I have. Please envision the exit doors, one from each classroom, that are essentially centered on the side wall of the structure. Not centered in the side wall of each classroom, but centered on the side wall of the structure. The distance between the doorways is approximately 3', or approximately 4.5' center to center. On eissue is that the code stipulates when two doors are required form any building, they shall be separated a distance not less than 1/2 the overall diagonal of the building served. A separation of three feet cannot be construed by anyone as a separation of 1/2 the overall diagonal of the building. The updated drawings show access to a stairway at one end of the entry deck and a ramp, though quite some distance away, that can be accessed from the other end of the access deck. However, it still seems to me that the safety of students, in this case elementary students, in each of the classrooms could be compromised by one event, which is exactly what the code is designed to prevent.

Occupant load of 45 in each classroom = an occupant load of 90 for the structure. Occupant load of 90 requires two exits. When two exits are required, separation of exits is also required.
 
1015.2.1 Two exits or exit access doorways.

Where two exits or exit access doorways are required from any portion of the exit access ,(only one exit is required from each classroom) the exit doors or exit access doorways shall be placed a distance apart equal to not less than one-half of the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building or area to be served (the area served is each classroom not the entire building) measured.....
 
I agree with mtlogcabin. Both spaces have their independent exits. Would you require two adjacent tenant spaces in a strip mall to have their independent exit doors separated by half the diagonal if the cumulative occupant load exceeded the number that required two exits?
 
I believe I said it earlier also but as long as the egress capacity of the stair and ramp meets the requirements for ramps/stairs and compliantly serves the occupant load, the portable classrooms are good to go since the (2) exit doors in question serve separate spaces......JMHO
 
Yea, but assuming since the OL is >20; the back door is available and these doors are located as such and as seen in many portables, is to address and achieve accessibility and the rear/secondary exits are the ones greater then half the diagonal distances. Did this say single exits?

Also, were these one building or two trailers/portables backed against each other?
 
Perhaps I didn't say single exits, but there is only one exit door from each classroom. There are no rear exits, side exits, etc. One exit from each classroom. Those exit doors are separate by approximately 3'. According to what I read in Table 1015.1, only one exit is required from each classroom, since the occupant load in each of the classrooms is 45. This is not a daycare. From the seminars I have attneded on exiting over the years, it has always been my impression that you need to considere separation of exit at the specific space level and also at the overall building level.

As for the comment about tenant spaces in Malls, I would respond with the fact that there are at least two significant differences. (1) Each tenat space in malls that I am familiar with have the entitre mall side open for ingress and egress. (2) Are yopu familiar with a mall that does not have a sprinkler system?
 
What you describe is quite common in school and hotel designs that exit into a corridor. What you describe exits to the outside. Now I can see the logic of two remote exits from the deck since the CPOT is probably over 75 ft and the OL exceeds 50 for the deck. Is this a modular building built as a double clasroom? If so some other agency had approval over the design and approval of this structure and as an AHJ you may not have authority to require a change in the structure or exiting.
 
Big Mac said:
As for the comment about tenant spaces in Malls, I would respond with the fact that there are at least two significant differences. (1) Each tenat space in malls that I am familiar with have the entitre mall side open for ingress and egress. (2) Are yopu familiar with a mall that does not have a sprinkler system?
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I didn't say a "mall building" I said a "strip mall." I was referring to a larger building with multiple tenants that are referred to as strip malls.
 
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