Should we subcontract all government services?

[cda]

Just put them all in jail like they did the city manager in the other calif city

Where are the citizens?? Why don't they attend council meetings and keep the council and managers accountable????

 

[beach]

On the surface that seems worse. No one can stay awake for 48 hours and function at 100%. You have to sleep. It might take more personnel to run shorter shifts but in the long run it would benefit the FF's overall health over the course of their carreer and better serve the people they are called upon to help, especially those on the "box" as some called it on the FF sites I was reading.

Of course you assume everyone is awake for 48 hours.... do you also assume that a person on an 8 hour shift gets 10 hours of sleep before he shows up for work?

Let's say that firefighters switch to an 8 hour shift, their station gets a call to an incident 7 hours into their shift, they are on the incident for 3-4 hours (typical for a pretty good size T.C.), they are now being paid overtime and the next shift is sitting at the station getting paid with no apparatus because the shift before is still on the incident....... this can and probably will happen 3 times in a 24 hour period if you have three 8 hour shifts.... should we try to contact the second shift, pick them and ferry them to the incident that they know nothing about and take the first shift back to the station so that they can go home?

With your vast knowledge of fire dept. operations and what you glean from the 'net, I'd be open to any suggestions and any data you can provide supporting the dangers of firefighters working shifts over 8 hours and also how you ensure the people you work with, that work "regular" shifts, get enough sleep so as not to become a danger to society.......

Maybe we can suggest nap time to the armed forces......

 

[Yikes]

I recently responded to an RFP for a library renovation here in California, and found out that the county had subcontracted their entire library system to a private company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Systems_%26_Services

Another city around here did likewise last month. It turns out that the pension burden in California is getting so huge that it is unsustainable, and yet the public employee unions are so strong that no one has the political will to enact serious pension reform. The reason that privatization is currently being considered is that it is the only long-term sustainable option other than bankruptcy.

I know I'm touching a hot-botton issue here since many forum members are public employees, but I am speaking specifically to the situation in California, where many pension forumulas were negotiated in the hot economy of the previous 10 years, with no long-term plan of how to actually pay for it.

I know of a very competent guy who recently retired as a city manager at age 50 with 90% of his salary. Of course, he didn't really "retire"; he now negotiates bond deals, trading in on his previous network of municipal contacts. The pension system was originally designed to provide incentive to stay in a public-sector job, but it's encouraging some to leave at the height of their experience and effectiveness.

Something's gotta give.

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_california-unions.html

 

[beach]

That's true..... when times are good, nobody wants to work in the public sector because they would take a cut in pay, when times are bad, they always ask how they can get a government job...... but they never do, because the economy turns around and they again snub their noses saying they can make more money private. I've seen it numerous times but not as bad as this, the whiners that didn't save their money always start sniveling again because they don't have a retirement plan and didn't put any of the "more money in the private sector" money away, then they start blaming the public employees.

I challenge anyone that is offered a job with benefits to say "Oh no, that's too much.... I can't accept that..."

PERS is in trouble, new hires won't be seeing the benefits that the existing employees are seeing now. People will retire out with their benefits and the new hires that replace them will have less.......... IGMAFU

 

[Jobsaver]

Let's say that firefighters switch to an 8 hour shift, their station gets a call to an incident 7 hours into their shift, they are on the incident for 3-4 hours (typical for a pretty good size T.C.), they are now being paid overtime and the next shift is sitting at the station getting paid with no apparatus because the shift before is still on the incident....... this can and probably will happen 3 times in a 24 hour period if you have three 8 hour shifts.... should we try to contact the second shift, pick them and ferry them to the incident that they know nothing about and take the first shift back to the station so that they can go home?

I thought it a legitimate question for which this is a legitimate answer. Why all the drama?

 

[beach]

[I thought it a legitimate question for which this is a legitimate answer. Why all the drama?/QUOTE]

That's true and I apologize. I'm just tired of trying to defend something that some people apparantly don't understand. I also don't understand the need to bash another persons profession and demand that changes should be made to match their own, different profession.

 

[mtlogcabin]

You are the 1st to explain some of this. What I have been reading on the net are other boards like this one (firechief and firehouse.com) and there seems to be pros and cons no matter which work schedule is used. No matter what proffession you are in long work hours are not healthy.

There has to be a better way and if it means more staff & it cost more in overtime but it reduces injuries and turnover of FF staff the benfits may equall out.

How about overlapping shifts say 2 hours our SO does this. FF coming on shift would respond to calls those coming to the end would be doing station duties, paperwork, training, etc.

 

[beach]

Personally, I don't see a problem and I haven't heard of any problem with overnight shifts. It's been done for a very long time.

 

[fatboy]

"I'm just tired of trying to defend something that some people apparantly don't understand. I also don't understand the need to bash another persons profession and demand that changes should be made to match their own, different profession."

And, I also want to say..........it was just a question, I was NOT attacking in any fashion. Only being on the fringes of the fire service,(inspections) I did not know the reasoning behind the 24/48/96 hour shifts. Now it is a little clearer.

That being said, the same logic you apply about overlapping duties/shifts, could/would still apply with longer shifts, and with more consequences, due to lack of sleep. Just saying, not attacking or judging.

"Personally, I don't see a problem and I haven't heard of any problem with overnight shifts. It's been done for a very long time."

But, is it really needed anymore, is this a fall back from older days? Again, just saying.......

 

[beach]

Sorry Fatboy, it wasn't directed at you and I must be extra sensitive today...... You are correct with the point regarding overlapping, it just won't happen as often with longer shifts.

8 hour shifts = 3 times in 24 hours

24 hour shifts = 1 time in 24 hours

48 hour shifts = 1 time in 48 hours

Still not an issue with sleep depravation that I can see, and I really don't see any data on the effects of a firefighter waking up in the middle of the night to do his job. I really, still can't see the need for people on this board to fix something that is not broken.

The Coast Guard, for example, wakes up from a sound sleep and flies helicopters to rescue boaters, I don't believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that they have 8 hour shifts and stay awake waiting for a call...... again, I could be wrong, but living on the Coast with the Coast Guard stationed here, I believe I'm correct as they provide mutual aid for boating incidents....... Surgeons sleep at hospitals, I could probably think of more, but do I really have to????

I'm sure FM Bill could shed more light on the subject, but he's a lot smarter than I am and stays out of these messes. Me? Not so smart.......

 

[Uncle Bob]

I don't know about the Firemen, but;

Ya'll might as well get used to the idea that all municipalities will eventually contract out the Building Safety Department. If you will check all the major companies that contract out the Building Safety Departments; that when they hire inspectors; you will find that they "require certification" before they will even consider hiring you.

That is the opposite of most municipalities; that prefer to hire the least qualified (least expensive). Municipalities cannot afford to keep hiring "employees" to do a job that does not pay for it's cost.

Oops, almost forgot; don't believe that crap that the contractor will hire the cities employees. It ain't going to happen. When you get wind of your jobs being contracted out; you better get a job and fast.

Uncle Bob

 

[fatboy]

Dang UB, kinda on a rip there.............bad day?

I've got my cert's/ducks in a row. but I respectfully disagree, at least in my shop, it would cost more to sub-contract......just saying.

 

[fatboy]

Beach, I appreciate the insight.......as I said, I considered going into the fire service when I was a bit youger, but the 24/48/96 shifts were part of my not doing it, wife, kids, other obligations.........didn't seem like it would work for me. Glad that there are some that it does work for.

 

[beach]

No problem fatboy! Also, during a wildfire, you get shipped all over the state or to other states for days..... long shifts work for that, too. There's more, but I'm getting tired of having to 'splain.......

oh, and I understand the family thing.... my dad was on the FD and wasn't around much either....

 

[conarb]

Notice that I titled this thread "subcontract all government services", and several here work for private inspection companies. Some of our fire distriucts are merging and consolidating to save money.

SAN CARLOS, CA (KGO) -- Hard times mean hard decisions. A Bay Area city that already has decided to outsource police protection voted Monday night to do the same thing with firefighters. Morale is low at San Carlos fire stations. As many as 24 firefighter positions are on the line now that city leaders have decided to begin the process of outsourcing its fire service.

"As of right now, since they gave notice, the organization is going to cease to exist October of next year. And today, my guys don't have jobs after that point," says Gary Jacobs with the San Carlos Firefighters Association.

The vote was 4-1. For city leaders, it came down to the bottom line. Outsourcing will save over $1 million with apparently no change in the level of service.¹

¹ http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/peninsula&id=7732040

 

[Bootleg]

Beach,

Hang in there.

You are doing a good job on the HOT SEAT.

Are you a Fire Fighter?

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

For a 24 hour shift it takes 3.5 people to staff one position on a fire engine. For an 8 hour shift it takes 5.5 people to staff the same position on a fire engine. Its simple math and money. Fire departments that are very busy have to use the 8 hour shift due to fatigue. There are times in any fire department where fire fighting can involve physical activity for an entire 24 hour shift.

Take a county like Weld County Colorado. It is one of the largest counties in the country based on size. On any day there will be 4 sheriff officers patrolling the county.

There are many paid and volunteer fire departments in that county. A sheriff might take 2 hours to get to you depending on the nature of the call. A fire fighter might take 15 minutes.

But lets talk about contract fire departments like Rural - M. in Arizona. They have low pay and staff a driver or two in many fire stations. We used to joke that they were the number one maker of tennis courts. House burns down, then all you have is a slab. With only one person on a fire engine, there was no one to enter the building to put out the fire.

This discussion involves some comments made by people with no understanding of requirements and commitment to be a fire fighter. Pound nails you might get a splinter or a busted thumb. Fight fire and you might live until a few years after retirement. The average age of death of fire fighter is about 55. Thats why fire fighters are allowed to retire at 50.

Number one cause of death of fire fighters is heart disease. Because they have to go from a quiet state to a hyper state within seconds. The heart of a fire fighter gets more abuse than just about any other occupation.

 

[packsaddle]

The average age of death of fire fighter is about 55.

Not to sound insensitive, but who cares?

Firefighters know the risk of their occupation but purposely choose to do it anyway.

Number one cause of death of fire fighters is heart disease. Because they have to go from a quiet state to a hyper state within seconds. The heart of a fire fighter gets more abuse than just about any other occupation.

Again, who cares?

BTW, this is also known as the logical fallacy "appeal to pity".

X is presented with the intent to create pity, therefore claim Y is true.

Not sure what your claim Y is, but it doesn't matter anyway because pity does not serve as evidence for any claim.

And before you proceed with your ad hominem attacks, I think you should know that I am a Reserve Deupty Sheriff.

I chase bad guys for free 40 hours per week (on top of my 40 hour full-time job).

I do it because it is fun and it is an escape from the stressors of my full-time job.

I believe that if all paid firefighters and law enforcement were fired today, volunteers would replace them tomorrow.

Volunteerism is the backbone of this country and is evidence of the spirit of America.

Not trying to engage in a debate, just pointing out the weaknesses of your argument.

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

packsaddle,

Thanks for your response. Just this morning I saw that another police officer was killed in the line of duty. He was pursuing an individual into a park and exchanged gun fire. I grieve for the officer.

It would not be appropriate to use your sentiments in regard to his death. But then you must also believe that your arguments apply.

Would it be better to have a timely response by medical personnel or not?

It is good that you chase bad guys for free. And you do it because it is fun!

I will admit that I have also worked as a volunteer fire fighter for many years. I did it as a service. At times I had fun, but most of the time it was dirty, dangerous, and without any thanks. I have had to plead for equipment that was required by law. We got little or no support for local agencies.

As a Deputy Sheriff, did you have to provide your own equipment?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Because they have to go from a quiet state to a hyper state within seconds. The heart of a fire fighter gets more abuse than just about any other occupation

That is what I am questioning. What length of shift is best for the health of the FF regardless of cost to the city? From the little bit I have read long shifts are very detrimental to anyones health

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

I don't know if there is a study that will quantify that information. But, here is some more information:

Firefighters and on-duty deaths from coronary heart disease: a case control study

Stefanos N Kales, 1,2 Elpidoforos S Soteriades,1,2 Stavros G Christoudias,1 and David C Christiani2,3,4

Results

​

A preponderance of evidence demonstrated that the 52 firefighters included as CHD cases died as a result of ischemic heart disease, including autopsies in 36 cases (69%), and pre-morbid evidence of arterial occlusive disease in six additional cases (12%). Risk factors and symptomatology supported CHD as the most likely cause of death in the remaining 10 (19%) fatalities. Non-autopsy verified cases were more likely to be over 50 years old (p = 0.001), but otherwise, their prevalence of risk factors was similar to the autopsy verified cases. Regarding professional status, 35 (67%) were professional firefighters with the remainder serving as volunteer firefighters. However, we found no significant differences in the prevalence of CHD risk factors between career and volunteer CHD decedents, and the majority of both groups had not undergone a fire department medical examination in the two years preceding their death (Table 1). Therefore, we combined the volunteer and the professional CHD cases for the case-control analyses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC293431/

 

[conarb]

Personal factors may also increase firefighters' susceptibility to CHD. Few fire departments require veterans to maintain the physical standards required of new hires. Therefore, many incumbent firefighters lack the minimum exercise tolerance thought necessary to safely perform the most demanding tasks. In addition, firefighters have high prevalences of overweight, obesity and hypercholesterolemia. Furthermore, although the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) recommends fire department medical examinations and specific fitness for duty criteria, most firefighters do not receive these examinations.

I wonder if anyone has done a comparable study of volunteer firefighters? Assuming that volunteer firefighters are maintaining normal work activity they may do better being called to stressful activity on occasion, siting around in firehouses eating and drinking isn't the best preparation for fighting fires. Firefighting is still a relatively safe activity, much safer than construction, they don't even make the 10 top.

View attachment 245

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View attachment 245

/monthly_2010_11/death-rates.jpg.fc5bf4fca26dc0f79652a5b7538b8d0c.jpg

 

[packsaddle]

As a Deputy Sheriff, did you have to provide your own equipment?

Here are my personal expenses thus far:

$2,000 for the academy (required by state)

$500 for body armor (gotta make it home each night)

$900 for custom leather duty belt (this thing is sweet)

$900 for .45 caliber handgun (because they don't make a .46 caliber)

$500 for tactical 12 gauge shotgun (for those special occasions)

$500 for miscellaneous gear (i.e. ammunition, flashlights, cuffs, asp, oc spray, etc.)

$200 for Stetson cowboy hat (gotta play the part)

And there are more expenses to come ($1,800 .223 caliber patrol rifle, for example).

They did provide the uniform and badge though (approximate value $75).

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

Conarb,

The death rates seem to be off just a little. There were 90 fire fighter deaths in 2009. The BLS study only indicates 29. And the study information I listed before showed no difference in mortality rates between paid and volunteer fire fighters. So I guess the next question is why we don't have volunteer construction workers, loggers, truckers, etc. Don't they do it for fun?

packsaddle,

No Starbucks card?

You must have a saddle... a pony... some spurs?

A uniform and a badge for $75? Most fire fighters uniform pants cost more than that. A badge alone is over $100 from any typical badge manufacturer. Did the badge come from the 99 Cent Store?