I am not confused, I am aware of this thanks. That is the entire point of this thread. The space is classified as "B" USE . I know the difference. Mercantile, Assembly etc. I simply asked shouldn't the architect know what the occupancy use is by the size and activity in the space. If you see my other post about this asking about change of use etc. I just don't want to pay for things I don't need, is that a crime? In zero way shape or form and I trying to negate any process, I have been told many things by different people and came here to get some clarification. X amount of space is used for classes, x amount of space is used for retail = what use. I mean I could go on and on but you assume I am just some idiot who doesn't want to pay a professional for their work. That is not the case, in fact I am quite fascinated by building, and like to do my homework.
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Shouldn't my architect know the building use codes and not need to call zoning?
- Thread starter jlfitz67
- Start date
Thanks That is all I needed to know.
bill1952
SAWHORSE
To try to answer your original question, I would not expect an architect to know every aspect of every code - building and zoning - in all the jurisdictions he works in.
Accept their price - as a stipulated sum - or counter offer or walk away from them.
Accept their price - as a stipulated sum - or counter offer or walk away from them.
Inspector Gadget
Registered User
That's working. That costs money.
RLGA
SAWHORSE
As a business owner, do you know all of the regulations of the UCC adopted by your state?
have a great day,
thanks have a great day I have been told 10 different things I need that all conflict so sorry for coming here how do I delete this acco
Not sure why you feel the need to leave. You have gotten a lot of good information, it's just not the information you wanted to hear.
Your real question isn't shouldn't the architect know uses or zoning information. Your question is why do you need to pay him $2000 when you did all the "work".
And both have been answered.
Your real question isn't shouldn't the architect know uses or zoning information. Your question is why do you need to pay him $2000 when you did all the "work".
And both have been answered.
nah. I am happy to pay. not the issue, asked question wrong is all. again just a moron.
RLGA
SAWHORSE
You may think this is a very small project (compared to a hospital, it is); however, it is much larger than you make it out to be.
The building official wants the information requested to determine the occupant load, whether it's a Group B or a Group A (because you mentioned classes), and whether the existing egress system is sufficient for the change in use (which is different from a change in occupancy if it remains a Group B).
Zoning regulations are not consistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some are complex and some are poorly developed, so calling the zoning department for clarification or confirmation may be necessary. Doing this may avoid complications further down the road should an incorrect interpretation be made by the architect--they are just considering their liability. I highly encourage architects to call the applicable department if something is not as clear-cut as it may seem.
You said there is no construction, yet you mention plumbing, electrical, and HVAC work is involved--that is construction. Is there waste piping at the location of the new sink? If not, you might need some concrete slab removal and replacement, which can become very complicated.
Should architects know the building or zoning code? To some degree, yes. Should they memorize the codes? No. Some architects have more experience than others. Some are more of the artsy designer type rather than the technical type who understands codes and regulations.
By the way, the UCC is the Uniform Commercial Code adopted by states, not unlike building codes, to regulate business transactions. Similar to architects, I don't expect all business owners to know or fully comprehend their state's adopted version, but they should be familiar enough with it to understand that it exists and that their business will be subject to its enforcement.
The building official wants the information requested to determine the occupant load, whether it's a Group B or a Group A (because you mentioned classes), and whether the existing egress system is sufficient for the change in use (which is different from a change in occupancy if it remains a Group B).
Zoning regulations are not consistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some are complex and some are poorly developed, so calling the zoning department for clarification or confirmation may be necessary. Doing this may avoid complications further down the road should an incorrect interpretation be made by the architect--they are just considering their liability. I highly encourage architects to call the applicable department if something is not as clear-cut as it may seem.
You said there is no construction, yet you mention plumbing, electrical, and HVAC work is involved--that is construction. Is there waste piping at the location of the new sink? If not, you might need some concrete slab removal and replacement, which can become very complicated.
Should architects know the building or zoning code? To some degree, yes. Should they memorize the codes? No. Some architects have more experience than others. Some are more of the artsy designer type rather than the technical type who understands codes and regulations.
By the way, the UCC is the Uniform Commercial Code adopted by states, not unlike building codes, to regulate business transactions. Similar to architects, I don't expect all business owners to know or fully comprehend their state's adopted version, but they should be familiar enough with it to understand that it exists and that their business will be subject to its enforcement.
bill1952
SAWHORSE
Should you have to pay extra for a design professional to look at and review code? No in my opinion and in my business. It's part of the service. If they want $2000 plus additional for determining applicable code, I'd say no, include that. It shouldn't matter if it's committed to memory or has to be researched. All included.
About the only time I can charge hourly or extra beyond a stipulated sum is when doing expert witness work, just about never as a design professional. I propose my services for the project and it's all included. I even include travel expenses which many bill for reimbursement in addition to stipulated sum. My clients liked knowing what I would cost.
About the only time I can charge hourly or extra beyond a stipulated sum is when doing expert witness work, just about never as a design professional. I propose my services for the project and it's all included. I even include travel expenses which many bill for reimbursement in addition to stipulated sum. My clients liked knowing what I would cost.
bill1952
SAWHORSE
I did think this was Business (less than 50 students) and Mercantile. I suspected the mercantile might be accessory but maybe it's a lot bigger part of the business than I imagined.
walker.t
Registered User
I’m seeing only helpful and respectful responses to the original post, can’t complain about that.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
People want their opinion, from your mouth...
That's why this country is so messed up.
walker.t
Registered User
Kind of like your Einstein quote.
RLGA
SAWHORSE
Did the OP say he was paying extra? It seems he received a fee estimate of over $2,000 for services, including the drawing and code research (including calls to the AHJ). Apparently, the OP only wants to pay for the drawing work and nothing else. Who knows, maybe that 30-minute call in the architect's fee could save a couple of hours making corrections later on.
When preparing a stipulated sum fee proposal, I include time for document production, meetings, and other research, whether I eventually use the time or not. I take the risk of underestimating the required effort, but if the client adds other things to the scope of services not anticipated (i.e., "Can you please do this, too?"), then that is an additional service that requires compensation. Sometimes, I will do it for no additional fee if I overestimated my original fee.
bill1952
SAWHORSE
That's fair and I think the usual practice. As a one person office working out of my home, I was pretty lax on asking for additional services. Sure, we want you to design two theatres, not one - I'd probably ask for a little more. That almost happened once. More often they wanted 2 but budget cut one by bid time. No give backs. 
(and glad to be out of it!)
(and glad to be out of it!)Tim Mailloux
Registered User
i read the OP in that the architect is charging over $2000 which includes doing his due diligence (call zoning and code research), not that these are extras above and beyond the $2000 'drawing fee'. The OP is questioning why the architect is charging for this time / work instead of having all this code and zoning info committed to memory.
I am autistic so yeah not as smart as I think I am.
The process is confusing.
What is needed is not outlined anyplace like in the town business application process page.
Been told 4 different things
Yes you need x
No you don’t
You only need y
You need x and y
All by professionals
Got initial estimate of 1/4 of the price.
Still zero clarification is it a change of use, or why this is not a question a regular person can ask.
“Your architect determines use and occupancy code and if it is a change if use”
Architect ask me-“is it a change of use?”
So apologies if being confused and wonder what is normal procedure etc and no these were not all normal answers
Only one person explained in detail. I only said I had provided original drawings etc to say there was some info existing etc.
This made me cry so sorry I ever came here
The process is confusing.
What is needed is not outlined anyplace like in the town business application process page.
Been told 4 different things
Yes you need x
No you don’t
You only need y
You need x and y
All by professionals
Got initial estimate of 1/4 of the price.
Still zero clarification is it a change of use, or why this is not a question a regular person can ask.
“Your architect determines use and occupancy code and if it is a change if use”
Architect ask me-“is it a change of use?”
So apologies if being confused and wonder what is normal procedure etc and no these were not all normal answers
Only one person explained in detail. I only said I had provided original drawings etc to say there was some info existing etc.
This made me cry so sorry I ever came here
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Ultimately the building official can waive the requirement to provide drawings.
However, the state Architecture licensing laws may require that a licensed architect is required to prepare drawings based on the scope of the work.
SECTION 107
SUBMITTAL DOCUMENTS
[A] 107.1 General.
Submittal documents consisting of construction documents, statement of special inspections, geotechnical report and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each permit application. The construction documents shall be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional.
Exception: The building official is authorized to waive the submission of construction documents and other data not required to be prepared by a registered design professional if it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that review of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.
Going from a retail/M occupancy to a business/B occupancy is less hazardous Your other post stated this is about 1,000 sq ft with about 200 sq ft remaining as a retail space.
I would classify the use as non-separated B and M occupancy. You may have accessibility issue to address with regards to entering the building.
I understand your frustration with the process, which people are just ignorant of because it is something they have no experience with process.
However, the state Architecture licensing laws may require that a licensed architect is required to prepare drawings based on the scope of the work.
SECTION 107
SUBMITTAL DOCUMENTS
[A] 107.1 General.
Submittal documents consisting of construction documents, statement of special inspections, geotechnical report and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each permit application. The construction documents shall be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional.
Exception: The building official is authorized to waive the submission of construction documents and other data not required to be prepared by a registered design professional if it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that review of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.
The answer to this question would come from the building official.
Going from a retail/M occupancy to a business/B occupancy is less hazardous Your other post stated this is about 1,000 sq ft with about 200 sq ft remaining as a retail space.
I would classify the use as non-separated B and M occupancy. You may have accessibility issue to address with regards to entering the building.
I understand your frustration with the process, which people are just ignorant of because it is something they have no experience with process.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Each municipality has different zoning codes and amendments to the building codes and he needs to spend time researching this. You need to be cognizant of that and understanding of the process.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Not sure why that is. You came here with guns blazing and very aggressive. All we did was try to help and you were defensive because you had an agenda and wanted someone to tell you what you wanted to hear. Maybe this is not the place for you. We are trying to help, but your attitude is getting in your own way.
Yankee Chronicler
Registered User
@jlfitz67, in your research did you get into researching the Existing Building Code? If your jurisdiction has adopted the IEBC (International Existing Building Code), that book is the starting point for pretty much every project in (or in addition to) an existing building. From your description, it appears that you are going to be leasing one tenant space in a multi-tenant building. Are you aware that the IEBC requires information about the entire building, NOT just about the specific space in which alterations are proposed? I frequently have to reject plans for minor alterations because the plans don't include the information that is required by the code.
You may think it's silly, or nit-picking, but neither architects not code officials write the codes. The codes are adopted by the jurisdiction (state, county, municipality). Yes, architects should know the code. Those who know the code know that the code requires certain information, and they need to obtain and verify that information before they can put their seal and signature on a drawing.
I'm quite certain that you are envisioning a plan that shows just the tenant space you will be leasing. If you were to submit that plan to my department, I would have to reject it as being incomplete. Just based on what you have told us, I expect that my letter of denial would run at least two pages, probably three.
You may think it's silly, or nit-picking, but neither architects not code officials write the codes. The codes are adopted by the jurisdiction (state, county, municipality). Yes, architects should know the code. Those who know the code know that the code requires certain information, and they need to obtain and verify that information before they can put their seal and signature on a drawing.
I'm quite certain that you are envisioning a plan that shows just the tenant space you will be leasing. If you were to submit that plan to my department, I would have to reject it as being incomplete. Just based on what you have told us, I expect that my letter of denial would run at least two pages, probably three.
Yikes
Gold Member
This may seem like a big project to the original poster, but to an architect, this may be a relatively small fee for the risk of not doing their own due diligence. Asking the architect to not do his own due diligence is akin to going to a doctor for an annual checkup and saying you want a 20% discount because you already measured your own vitals.
A real-life example from my own architectural career: I had a client that asked me to do a building interior remodel for a very low fee, and they removed all zoning code review and gave me their own site plan for use. They actually did a pretty good job on the site plan, so it was complete enough for plan check submittal.
The problem was, I still had to spend time to write the contract in such a way that I was not responsible for zoning compliance, that I was entitled to rely on the owner-supplied zoning and site information, and the owner would indemnify, defend and hold me harmless for any missing or incorrect zoning information, and finally that any additional work necessitated by the owner-supplied information would be an additional service.
In other words, it cost me time and money to draft a contract that deleted normally assumed scope of work. Of course I recovered that time in my basic fee.
Fast forward, the plans are submitted, and the city planner discovers that not only will there be an increase in required parking, but even the existing parking striping was bootlegged and undersized. When the client did their own zoning research, they only looked for allowable uses; they did not know that the parking requirements were also part of the zoning code. Now the client was on the hook to correct the parking problem, and that modification triggered accessible parking upgrades, and that triggered grading changes, and the grading changes triggered onsite stormwater processing, etc.
A real-life example from my own architectural career: I had a client that asked me to do a building interior remodel for a very low fee, and they removed all zoning code review and gave me their own site plan for use. They actually did a pretty good job on the site plan, so it was complete enough for plan check submittal.
The problem was, I still had to spend time to write the contract in such a way that I was not responsible for zoning compliance, that I was entitled to rely on the owner-supplied zoning and site information, and the owner would indemnify, defend and hold me harmless for any missing or incorrect zoning information, and finally that any additional work necessitated by the owner-supplied information would be an additional service.
In other words, it cost me time and money to draft a contract that deleted normally assumed scope of work. Of course I recovered that time in my basic fee.
Fast forward, the plans are submitted, and the city planner discovers that not only will there be an increase in required parking, but even the existing parking striping was bootlegged and undersized. When the client did their own zoning research, they only looked for allowable uses; they did not know that the parking requirements were also part of the zoning code. Now the client was on the hook to correct the parking problem, and that modification triggered accessible parking upgrades, and that triggered grading changes, and the grading changes triggered onsite stormwater processing, etc.