Shower Inspection Issues

[WJMundy]

I am a homeowner in Newbury Park, CA and I'm having trouble with our building inspector saying we can only have 1 shower panel in our remodel, which is now months along, and this only came up at rough plumbing inspection. Attached is the note he gave our contractor. I don't see anywhere in the code anything about "one valve per drain"? and I definitely see reference to showers with multiple showerheads. Can you point me to something in the code I can see to support what he says? or could you give me something I could show him that 2 shower panels are permissible. Or am I misinterpreting the problem he wants corrected? Each shower panel has it's own valve and multiple different shower functions, and is rated 2.0 GPM. Now I understand if the panels are not permissible (I believe the standard was lowered to 1.8 GPM), but from all I've read I can have two of them.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Do the approved plans show two shower heads?

Have you called the Building Department and asked them for the code section you are alleged to be in violation of?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

California Plumbing Code:

408.2.2 Multiple Showerheads Serving One Shower (BSC-CG, DSA-SS & DSA-SS/CC). When a shower is served by more than one showerhead, the combined flow rate of all showerheads and/or other shower outlets controlled by a single valve shall not exceed 1.8 gallons (6.81 L) per minute at 80 psi, or the shower shall be designed to allow only one shower outlet to be in operation at a time in compliance with Chapter 5, Division 5.3 of the California Green Building Standards Code (CALGreen).

I can't access the CALGreen standard, so I can't quote division 5.3. The plumbing code seems pretty clear: You can have multiple shower heads all operated by a single control valve if the combined flow doesn't exceed 1.8 GPM. You can have two shower heads and two valves if the two valves are somehow interlocked so that you can't operate both showerheads simultaneously.

xx

 

[WJMundy]

California Plumbing Code:



I can't access the CALGreen standard, so I can't quote division 5.3. The plumbing code seems pretty clear: You can have multiple shower heads all operated by a single control valve if the combined flow doesn't exceed 1.8 GPM. You can have two shower heads and two valves if the two valves are somehow interlocked so that you can't operate both showerheads simultaneously.

xx

Division 5.3 has the exact same text as what you quoted. I found in an older document, Guide to the 2016 California Green Building Code Standard, published by the state, guidance which says each valve in a shower can have the max flow rate (at the time it was 2.0 GPM). The language of the earlier standard is exactly the same, except for the change from 2.0 GPM to 1.8 GPM. But I can't find anywhere that says to interpret it this way still. [bold type mine for emphasis]

"Section 4.303.1.3.2 addresses multiple showerheads serving one shower.
The specified flow rate of 2.0 gallons per minute at 80 psi also applies in
situations where one or more valves supply multiple showerheads in a single
shower enclosure or space. “Fixture types” or sources of water flow include,
but are not limited to, showerheads, handshowers and bodysprayers.
The maximum flow rate provisions apply to the total amount of water flow
resulting from each valve supplying the individual shower enclosure regardless
of the number of attached showerheads (or similar fixture outlets or
sprays). For example, if only one valve supplies a shower enclosure or
shower area , the maximum water flow, regardless of the number of showerheads
and other outlets, is 2.0 gpm at 80 psi. If two (or more) separate valves
provide water to separate showerheads and other outlets, the maximum flow
rate for each valve would be 2.0 gpm at 80 psi. If the operation of two or
more showerheads and body sprays controlled by a single valve results in
more than 2.0 gpm at 80 psi total water flow, then only one showerhead may
operate at one time with a maximum flow rate of not more than 2.0 gpm."

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Guides are not enforceable codes.

Codes usually get more restrictive with newer editions. I don't know why you would look at the 2016 CALGreen if that's not the edition that's currently in efect.

 

[ICE]

• Mar 9, 2020

I have approved a shower with three heads with three separate valves. The heads were at different heights. One for dad, one for mom, one for the kids. Technically the total gpm of the combined heads is not allowed to exceed the gpm for a shower.....but that wouldn't work.


The correction is incorrect. There is no limit to the number of valves.

I recently had the house re-piped. That ruined the showers. I should have made the trip to a Home Depot in Nevada.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I have approved a shower with three heads with three separate valves. The heads were at different heights. One for dad, one for mom, one for the kids. Technically the total gpm of the combined heads is not allowed to exceed the gpm for a shower.....but that wouldn't work.

So you're acknowledging that you intentionally and knowingly approved a code violation.

Is there any reason why the OP should expect an inspector in a different jurisdiction to approve such a violation?

 

[ICE]

So you're acknowledging that you intentionally and knowingly approved a code violation.

Is there any reason why the OP should expect an inspector in a different jurisdiction to approve such a violation?

Yes, yes I do admit to that… and oh my goodness …. it’s too late to have me shot. A shower head??? Really now a shower head? In the long list of my percieved misdeeds, a shower head is hard to notice.

I will express my opinion and the world at large can do with it what they will. The OP’s expectations are his own.

By the way, I Googled it and as luck would have it, I have the right size drill bit… You know that’s what I like about this forum… it gets me to thinking which expands my horizons.

For the curious… YouTube has videos on fixing a shower head. When you see the guy with the screw driver… well a drill does a better job of it.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

The point is that you approved a code violation. I understand that you decided a shower head isn't the hill you chose to die on. That's your call.

But the OP should not expect that another inspector -- any other inspector -- will overlook something that is explicitly a violation.

His question was whether a shower can have two heads and two valves. The answer is yes -- if the two valves are somehow arranged such that only one can operate at the same time. I have no idea how to accomplish that, and I doubt that's what he has in mind -- but that's the answer.

 

[ICE]

but that's the answer.

Yes and he got that answer. And guess what, my answer is not all that unusual.

 

[wwhitney]

The plumbing code seems pretty clear: You can have multiple shower heads all operated by a single control valve if the combined flow doesn't exceed 1.8 GPM. You can have two shower heads and two valves if the two valves are somehow interlocked so that you can't operate both showerheads simultaneously.

That second sentence is not how I read the quoted section of UPC 408.2.2. And CalGreen Code 5.303.3.3.2 "Multiple Showerheads Serving One Shower" has the same text:

When a shower is served by more than one showerhead, the combined flow rate of all showerheads and/or other shower outlets controlled by a single valve shall not exceed 1.8 gallons per minute at 80 psi, or the shower shall be designed to allow only one shower outlet to be in operation at a time.

I read the text up to the "or" as saying for any single valve, the outlets controlled by that valve shall not exceed 1.8 gpm at 80 psi, without restriction on the number of valves. If that text wanted to require that there only be a single valve, it should say "When a shower is served by more than one showerhead, the combined flow rate of all showerheads and/or other shower outlets shall be controlled by a single valve and shall not exceed 1.8 gpm at 80 psi; or . . . ."

Basically as written "a single valve" = "any single valve" = "any one valve."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[WJMundy]

The point is that you approved a code violation. I understand that you decided a shower head isn't the hill you chose to die on. That's your call.

But the OP should not expect that another inspector -- any other inspector -- will overlook something that is explicitly a violation.

His question was whether a shower can have two heads and two valves. The answer is yes -- if the two valves are somehow arranged such that only one can operate at the same time. I have no idea how to accomplish that, and I doubt that's what he has in mind -- but that's the answer.

But that isn't what the code says. The earlier guidance (published by the state & ICC) on identical text says explicitly that a shower can have 2 (or more) valves with each having the max GPM. What the max GPM is has changed, but I find nothing anywhere that leads me to believe the earlier guidance has. The language regarding making them so only one operates at a time is referring to two heads controlled from the same valve, as the guidance says, explicitly. Your condescending dismissal of my positions does nothing to help me. It doesn't show me any evidence that something beyond the max GPM has changed. I've searched online for anything clarifying this in either direction. If it's changed there's gotta be something somewhere that says so.

 

[WJMundy]

After much late night searching, I was able to find the guide to the 2022 CalGreen Building Standards Code, and it says the exact same thing. So it's manifestly clear you can have more than one valve per shower.

All that being said, what about the one valve per drain? I cant find anything referencing this in either CalGreen, or the California Plumbing Code, but most of the images I see of double showers do have two drains.

 

[bill1952]

How is it that when a bureaucrat writes regulations like these, they become so unclear and unfocused? Do they get paid by the word? Following this thread I don't know what they're trying to say.

 

[steveray]

So put in 3 drains and it goes away?

 

[ICE]

So put in 3 drains and it goes away?

A shower will always have just one drain no matter how many inlets.

All positions aside, the obvious intent is that a person taking a shower shall be limited to 1.8 gallons per minute at 80-PSI. How you make that happen is up to you. My question is , what if there is more than one person in the shower? Should they be forced to share 1.8 gallons.

And by the way, it's not the valve that restricts the flow... it's the shower head. I fixed one of ours... it's like a fire hose now.

 

[steveray]

A shower will always have just one drain no matter how many inlets.

All positions aside, the obvious intent is that a person taking a shower shall be limited to 1.8 gallons per minute at 80-PSI. How you make that happen is up to you. My question is , what if there is more than one person in the shower? Should they be forced to share 1.8 gallons.

And by the way, it's not the valve that restricts the flow... it's the shower head. I fixed one of ours... it's like a fire hose now.

I drilled one of mine out...

 

[steveray]

A shower will always have just one drain no matter how many inlets.

All positions aside, the obvious intent is that a person taking a shower shall be limited to 1.8 gallons per minute at 80-PSI. How you make that happen is up to you. My question is , what if there is more than one person in the shower? Should they be forced to share 1.8 gallons.

And by the way, it's not the valve that restricts the flow... it's the shower head. I fixed one of ours... it's like a fire hose now.

If it is 270 inches then it can be 3 showers with 3 drains....

 

[wwhitney]

All positions aside, the obvious intent is that a person taking a shower shall be limited to 1.8 gallons per minute at 80-PSI.

While you may consider that intent to be obvious, it is not what the rule says.

And it's pretty easy to write a rule that says what you said. So I infer the choice of the more complicated language is due to a different intent.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Yikes]

WJ Mundy, your post #13 is correct. IMO, your next step is to call the inspector and say, “hey I really want to get this installation right. Can you amend the inspection notice to give me the specific code section references in both the California Plumbing Code and CalGreen, so I can further research the language of the requirements?”

You will find the California Plumbkng Code and California Green Building Code here: https://up.codes/codes/california

It sounds to me like you can have 2 separate supply valves (no diverter) with no increase in the number of drains. Perhaps you could ask this hypothetical: a gang shower (like at a school or prison) with a single trench drain serving all shower valves and shower heads: is it allowed in California?

 

[ICE]

a gang shower (like at a school)

Is that still being done?

 

[ICE]

While you may consider that intent to be obvious, it is not what the rule says.

And it's pretty easy to write a rule that says what you said. So I infer the choice of the more complicated language is due to a different intent.

Cheers, Wayne

In order to entertain your inference, I would need to know the "different" intent.

 

[steveray]

Is that still being done?

Not at schools anymore....I don't even think we let kids shower anymore...

 

[wwhitney]

In order to entertain your inference, I would need to know the "different" intent.

Well, the effect is that if you want to get more than 1.8 gpm, you would need to interact with two separate shower valves. So perhaps that is the intent, to make it clear to the user that they are using extra water when they go to a different valve and turn it on, vs just selecting different outputs on a single valve.

Or perhaps the intent is not to ban more than 1.8 gpm in a shower, but just to add an extra hurdle to construction of such a shower, thereby reducing how many such showers get built.

Regardless, the text as written has only one logical meaning, so I'm not sure speculating as to the intent is helpful.

Cheers, Wayne