Single family home, issue with shed blocking means of egress

[jartelt]

Hello!

Kind of a strange situation, but I am hoping to get a little guidance... I am trying to add a small enclosed porch at the rear of my home. This would act as a mudroom where you take off your shoes and hang your coat before entering the back door at the rear of the house. As it is now when you go in the back door you walk right onto carpet and it gets everything dirty.

I want to this to be an enclosed porch and not a full-on addition of habitable space to avoid pouring a full foundation, meeting stringent insulation requirements, etc. I would leave the back door at the rear of the house intact to make sure the new space is isolated from the inside, conditioned space. I understand the enclosed porch will be cold in winter and hot in summer, but I am fine with that.

One potential way to get around the foundation/insulation requirement is to call my enclosed porch a "shed" and not have it structurally connected to the house. It would be a three sided, freestanding shed built right up against the rear of the home and I would just use metal flashing and silicone to water seal the "Shed" to the existing home.

I spoke to the building code department in my city and they told me this will not work because I would create an egress issue by technically blocking my back door with the shed (even though in practice you can still go out the back door and then exit the shed since the shed only has three walls). If it wasn't for the egress issue, they said it is fine to build the structure as a "shed" and skip the foundation requirement and insulation requirements.

So... the question is: is there a way to designate the back door as not an egress route from the inside? Like can I put a sign up that says "NOT AN EXIT" or something similar?
Per code (R311.2 Egress Door) I believe I only technically need one door to meet the egress requirement, and my front door meets this requirement. I mean the back door is only 28" wide anyways so it does not even meet code for an egress door... If I could say it's not an egress route, it seems like I could technically block it with the "shed."

A sketchy alternative would be to just get permits to remove the backdoor (temporarily), build the shed, get everything inspected and approved, and then put my back door back without permits. But, I would prefer to do things legally...

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Other notes: I considered doing a sunroom since there are exceptions in code for those, but this room is on the north side of my home and doesn't get much sunlight. Plus, going with a bunch of windows eliminates the ability to put a lot of coat, shoe, and other storage...

 

[Plumb-bob]

Not sure what code you fall under, but I assume that you are correct with only needing the front door as an egress. I would go back to the code official with this interpretation.

 

[bill1952]

What you suggest might work I think it would be much simpler to just do two pier foundations and build it like an enclosed porch or deck. Not that hard to even hand dig, and removes all questions when it becomes time to sell.

Seems like less work than infilling door and then adding it back illegally, plus house can support half the porch.

No insulation regardless unless you install heating/cooling.

May be beyond me but if a separate building, is there a fire separation issue?

 

[redeyedfly]

You don't need to insulate unconditioned space.

Why not just use pier foundations? You don't want his entrance moving around with the frost anyway. SO much work to avoid doing things you should WANT to do on your own home.

 

[jartelt]

My city has adopted the 2018 ICC (International Code Council), so going by that! So, I should go back to them and try to argue that the back door is not actually a "means of egress" and I can go ahead and block it if I want?

 

[redeyedfly]

My city has adopted the 2018 ICC (International Code Council),

Hmmm, you should probably hire someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Beniah Naylor]

Ask about the required egress and find out what code section they are pulling that from.

My personal experience is that structures like you are describing don't last well. I would personally go to the extra work to install a foundation as has been described. If you plan to live in this house for any length of time, it will be well worth the investment.

 

[jartelt]

Trying to avoid doing foundation work because it would require me messing with the concrete slab that is already back there, and also to avoid paying for engineering drawings for the foundation/footings. It also would add many months to the timeline...

The building department told me that it's basically three options if I want to avoid foundation stuff:
1) open-air porch (not an option since wife wants it enclosed)
2) sunroom (not a good option since it will be expensive and super cold and dark)
3) this shed idea if it worked (doesn't require foundation work and I can insulate it as much as I want)

The moment I enclose the porch they said it will be considered habitable and would need full insulation and a proper foundation.

 

[jartelt]

Ask about the required egress and find out what code section they are pulling that from.

My personal experience is that structures like you are describing don't last well. I would personally go to the extra work to install a foundation as has been described. If you plan to live in this house for any length of time, it will be well worth the investment.

Fair point and duly noted! I will go ahead and try to get some quotes on what it will cost to do it as fully indoor space. If the cost difference is only $5k-10k (vs the shed idea), totally worth it. If it's an extra $20k, I don't know that my wife will approve it...

 

[bill1952]

So, I should go back to them and try to argue that the back door is not actually a "means of egress" and I can go ahead and block it if I want?

I wouldn't say you should but IMHO it is likely not required for egress. (Some oddity in the design might change affect that.)

The moment I enclose the porch they said it will be considered habitable and would need full insulation and a proper foundation.

This makes no sense. There are plenty of unheated and uninsulated enclosed porches. I'd humbly ask them where their opinion is supported in the code.

I am surprised a foundation requires an engineer. I've never lived in a jurisdiction where a simple foundation by the OTFDC or now IRC required engineers.

It should be simpler and I am sorry it's become so difficult. Wish you could get to the right person in the building department who would spend a little more time and help you out.

Have you talked to any builders, just to verify if the code department statements ring true? Neighbors who have built things?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Your porch/mud room foundation could be helical piers, which means no digging or excavation on your part. Probably will have to saw cut a hole in the concrete slab but that would be an easy fix.

 

[redeyedfly]

Fair point and duly noted! I will go ahead and try to get some quotes on what it will cost to do it as fully indoor space. If the cost difference is only $5k-10k (vs the shed idea), totally worth it. If it's an extra $20k, I don't know that my wife will approve it...

Dude... a couple piers would be a few hundred dollars if you did it yourself.

There is NO WAY you need to condition and insulate a porch, walls or not, it simply isn't required anywhere I have ever built.

 

[ICE]

You must have been dealing with a permit tech or simply misunderstood. Try an inspector. Start with the front door.
R311.2 Egress door. Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) where measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad).

 

[bill1952]

Your porch/mud room foundation could be helical piers, which means no digging or excavation on your part. Probably will have to saw cut a hole in the concrete slab but that would be an easy fix.

I thought about that, but wouldn't it require an engineered design? I don't recall them in the prescriptive requirements of the IRC.

 

[jartelt]

I wouldn't say you should but IMHO it is likely not required for egress. (Some oddity in the design might change affect that.)

This makes no sense. There are plenty of unheated and uninsulated enclosed porches. I'd humbly ask them where their opinion is supported in the code.

I am surprised a foundation requires an engineer. I've never lived in a jurisdiction where a simple foundation by the OTFDC or now IRC required engineers.

It should be simpler and I am sorry it's become so difficult. Wish you could get to the right person in the building department who would spend a little more time and help you out.

Have you talked to any builders, just to verify if the code department statements ring true? Neighbors who have built things?

Yea, we went back and forth for 20 minutes and he was very adamant that if I want enclosed walls (not screens) it'll be treated like habitable, conditioned space and require r20 walls, r30 ceiling, r19 floor, etc. Trust me I asked several times about how enclosed the porch could be before they required me to insulated as if it was indoor space. That doesn't mean he was correct, but he was adamant it was either 1) make it a full on addition of indoor space, 2) make it an unenclosed covered porch, or 3) make it a sunroom.

Honestly, I do not know if the foundation work would require an engineer. The permit guy just mentioned speaking with an engineer.

City code says:

R403.1.4.1 Frost protection. Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:
1. Extended below the frost line specified in Table R301.2. (1);
2. Constructing in accordance with Section R403.3;
3. Constructing in accordance with ASCE 32;
4. Erected on solid rock.

Perhaps it is trivial for an educated builder to meet those standards? I was/am just trying to avoid cutting concrete and excavating (but maybe I'm being dumb!). I have plenty of experience with during interior work like electrical, drywall, etc, but am new to dealing with foundation type things.

I have reached out to some builders for estimates. Haven't heard anything back yet. My guess is most will not want to deal with the city permitting for just a 100 sqft addition, but we'll see.

Neighbors won't be much help as they are recent buyers and haven't done work on their homes.

 

[classicT]

Even if it is a "shed" you need brace walls. Brace walls need a foundation. Otherwise, you are into engineering.

So many issues with what you were told, I suspect that your local AHJ is winging it and you're not getting the correct answer. The front door meets the egress requirements.

 

[ICE]

Yea, we went back and forth for 20 minutes and he was very adamant that if I want enclosed walls (not screens) it'll be treated like habitable, conditioned space and require r20 walls, r30 ceiling, r19 floor, etc. Trust me I asked several times about how enclosed the porch could be before they required me to insulated as if it was indoor space. That doesn't mean he was correct, but he was adamant it was either 1) make it a full on addition of indoor space, 2) make it an unenclosed covered porch, or 3) make it a sunroom.

Honestly, I do not know if the foundation work would require an engineer. The permit guy just mentioned speaking with an engineer.

City code says:

R403.1.4.1 Frost protection. Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:
1. Extended below the frost line specified in Table R301.2. (1);
2. Constructing in accordance with Section R403.3;
3. Constructing in accordance with ASCE 32;
4. Erected on solid rock.

Perhaps it is trivial for an educated builder to meet those standards? I was/am just trying to avoid cutting concrete and excavating (but maybe I'm being dumb!). I have plenty of experience with during interior work like electrical, drywall, etc, but am new to dealing with foundation type things.

I have reached out to some builders for estimates. Haven't heard anything back yet. My guess is most will not want to deal with the city permitting for just a 100 sqft addition, but we'll see.

Neighbors won't be much help as they are recent buyers and haven't done work on their homes.

Is a source of heat required?

 

[bill1952]

Well, it seems you have done your part well.

he was very adamant that if I want enclosed walls (not screens) it'll be treated like habitable, conditioned space and require r20 walls, r30 ceiling, r19 floor, etc

This makes no sense to me, and it seems I'm not alone. I'm tempted build it open, and designed for glazed sash after it's complete and inspected. Not an action I really like. If you go that route, google barn sash - inexpensive and just the thing for a "shed". (I built an enclosed porch with all combination wood storm/screen doors - could just leave the storm inserts out of sight. pre cell phone so no pics.)

I can only say I have not found it difficult to saw cut concrete and put in pier foundations. 10 x 10 - each pier supports 25 sf - small footing.

 

[jartelt]

Even if it is a "shed" you need brace walls. Brace walls need a foundation. Otherwise, you are into engineering.

So many issues with what you were told, I suspect that your local AHJ is winging it and you're not getting the correct answer. The front door meets the egress requirements.

The plan was to pour a concrete base around the perimeter of the shed and embed bolts in it (on top of the existing slab). Then secure the wood frame down onto those bolts. Maybe that's not allowed though? Just what a friend recommended.

The city code seems lenient for accessory sheds if they are under 12 feet tall and less than 500 sqft and says you can build them onto existing 3.5" slabs.

 

[jartelt]

Is a source of heat required?

Didn't ask about that. Only way I could get heat to that spot would be with it's own mini split or heater. No way I could get my HVAC vented there.

 

[jartelt]

Well, it seems you have done your part well.

This makes no sense to me, and it seems I'm not alone. I'm tempted build it open, and designed for glazed sash after it's complete and inspected. Not an action I really like. If you go that route, google barn sash - inexpensive and just the thing for a "shed". (I built an enclosed porch with all combination wood storm/screen doors - could just leave the storm inserts out of sight. pre cell phone so no pics.)

I can only say I have not found it difficult to saw cut concrete and put in pier foundations. 10 x 10 - each pier supports 25 sf - small footing.

Good to know. I'll try to get more opinions on what it will take to get it properly built with piers or a deeper foundation. Ultimately I probably want it to be done well and correctly or I'll just do a deck or something.

 

[jartelt]

This makes no sense. There are plenty of unheated and uninsulated enclosed porches. I'd humbly ask them where their opinion is supported in the code.

Just to expand on this point - the city does say

"Non-habitable additions to your house, such as a covered and enclosed porch or sunroom, do not require a full-depth foundation, heating, or insulation if they are enclosed by walls/windows that total 65 percent glass"

We just want much more wall space for storage inside and can't make the 65 % glass things work.

 

[jartelt]

And in case anyone is curious, the first contractor got back to me and said (which is not super promising!):

"Have you consulted an engineer? The city’s plan review will require stamped plans for the foundation detail and the roof structure.

How you planning to heat and cool the space?

At 100 sq. ft. of space, the cost per sq. ft. will be significant. Is there a reason you’re not making this larger and incorporate a pantry and maybe a laundry room into the space?

What budget range are you considering?"

 

[bill1952]

move.