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Sloping Church Floor?

Q

Question That

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Jun 28, 2022
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Preliminarily looking into the possiblility of designing in a sloping church floor to better accommodate site lines. I visit a church that has this feature built in.
Wondering where I would look at the code that may address this area specifically and possibly any Assembly occupancy or places of worship exceptions.

Anyone know off the top of their head what the max slope would be if I wanted to slope the entire floor (not just aisles per se) to keep construction relatively simple?
 
A slope of up to 1:8 is permitted but doesn't address accessibility. (Was not that long ago 1:5 was permitted.) I have done seating at 1:8 with aisles diagonal so 1:12. Takes a while. I don't think I've do one steeper than 1:12 in the last 10 years. Too much resistance and explaining for not enough gain.

Ideally, a slope for sight lines is not constant (as is commonly seen in the historic movie palaces). It's steeper at rear and changes to level close to stage. I've done that for many larger spaces to achieve best sightlines and meet a 30" max elevation change for accessibility. Typically might be something like 4 rows at 1:12, 4 at 1:16, 4 at 1:24, and 4 to 6 level. Older theatres (I've worked on renovating) seemed to do it in 3 row segments.

If it helps to clarify, pm me and I'll send some plans and sections.
 
The biggest problem you will run into his ADA accessibility issues actually slope becomes too steep! This could be a problem because you have to have the accessible seating spread out through the sanctuary not just here to comply with code requirements.
 
Msradell said:
The biggest problem you will run into his ADA accessibility issues actually slope becomes too steep! This could be a problem because you have to have the accessible seating spread out through the sanctuary not just here to comply with code requirements.
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To be a bit more precise, compliance under Title III with the 2010 ADA standards is not required at religious facilities. However, many locally adopted codes (including CBC 11B out here in California) have accessibility requirements that apply to newly constructed religious facilities, even though ADAS does not apply.

Additionally, if the church ever intends to lease out the facility to other public entities, or conduct business (for example, lease the auditorium to a local orchestra, or sell tickets to a Christmas pageant), then ADA would apply.
 
Having designed quite a few assembly spaces with fixed seating, it doesn't seem that difficult to comply with accessibility laws. What's too bad is how many designers understand so little about assembly seating, sightlines, and acoustics - all a part of the mix that now includes accessibility.

Msradell said:
The biggest problem you will run into his ADA accessibility issues actually slope becomes too steep!
Click to expand...
Actually not the steepness of sloped seating but the maximum elevation difference between landings - 30" - that is the bigger problem. (28" in Chicago out of fear of contractor errors - give them 2" of mistakes.) Too many people don't understand you can't put a landing in a ramped aisle and not destroy sightlines in the rows on the landing and 3 or more rows behind the landing.
 
bill1952 said:
Having designed quite a few assembly spaces with fixed seating, it doesn't seem that difficult to comply with accessibility laws. What's too bad is how many designers understand so little about assembly seating, sightlines, and acoustics - all a part of the mix that now includes accessibility.


Actually not the steepness of sloped seating but the maximum elevation difference between landings - 30" - that is the bigger problem. (28" in Chicago out of fear of contractor errors - give them 2" of mistakes.) Too many people don't understand you can't put a landing in a ramped aisle and not destroy sightlines in the rows on the landing and 3 or more rows behind the landing.
Click to expand...
Many places I've been they minimize the slope to less than 5% so that I don't have to worry about the landings. That you build a ramp here in Louisville to access a pedestrian bridge across the river with a spiral ramp that is 4.98% slope so they didn't have to put in landings. I challenged a ramp and I for got a set of drawings to verify the design. I actually took electronic level down after they completed it to verify they complied with the design. The original plan was to have an elevator but they dropped it because of cost. The total rise is 42+/- feet yet there are no landings.
 
Questionable if a 1/2" per foot does much for sight lines. A little in the first 6 to 8 rows perhaps, but not much behind that.
 
Still looking into all the comments above.
Bill wanted to respond to your comment cause got me thinking. Wondering if that slope could make a difference in combination (in some way) with a stage/ platform that is at x elevation. Since I would think that a stage/ platform helps with sight lines in general, does a sloping floor at your example help with sight lines further back than would typically be helped by the slope (if the pulpit was at same elevation as floor)?
 
Yikes- Iteresting! "To be a bit more precise, compliance under Title III with the 2010 ADA standards is not required at religious facilities."
Looked this up and into it a little but hoping to get a little clarification from you on this & others. So this would mean that anywhere in the code that "references" ada would be exempt but anything in the code that incorporates much of what the ADA has recommended would still apply. Therefor things like riser height, maximum slopes, handrail extensions and landing requirements would still need to be met because they are a PART of the IBC?
 
Msradell said:
Many places I've been they minimize the slope to less than 5% so that I don't have to worry about the landings. That you build a ramp here in Louisville to access a pedestrian bridge across the river with a spiral ramp that is 4.98% slope so they didn't have to put in landings. I challenged a ramp and I for got a set of drawings to verify the design. I actually took electronic level down after they completed it to verify they complied with the design. The original plan was to have an elevator but they dropped it because of cost. The total rise is 42+/- feet yet there are no landings.
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So, somewhere in the code it says I can slope the entire floor at 5% max from entry at front of building to stage at back of building?
 
Bill Quoted here... "A slope of up to 1:8 is permitted but doesn't address accessibility." (Was not that long ago 1:5 was permitted.) I have done seating at 1:8 with aisles diagonal so 1:12.
So, I could conceivably go as much as 1:8 for entire floor for a religious facility since, as Yikes is suggesting, the ADA would not technically apply here? Not suggesting this is the correct approach but just trying to get head wrapped around possibilities.
Then, if I could go all 1:8 for a distance of say 40 feet then that should help with sightlines correct? Especially since on a stage 2/0+ high with tiered risers for the choir on top of that (at 4.5" rise+ available as needed.
Note that I'm not clear on how diagonal aisles would work and how that works out. Would be difficult to construct correct?
 
Commish- after reviewing your code sections I'm running into another issue with the sloped floors. Intent is to have seating that is not fixed. According to 1029.14 "seat stability" I'm thinking this may not be an option with the ramped floor design I'm considering.
Exception 1 "For occuants of 200 or less without RAMPED or tiered floors" seats would not need to be fastened. 200 threshold is close to what we are shooting for but appears that won't matter if floor is ramped or tiered because code will require fastening to floor.
In everyone's mind would it be certain that what I'm proposing is a "ramped floor" according to code? or is there some slope percentage "threshold" that moves you from a floor to a ramped floor. Not considering a tiered arrangement currently.
 
I've not worked on a place of worship which didn't fully comply with the accessibility requirements. Too often used for non worship events open to public. I would strongly recommend against it BUT you might be fine legally. And ADA, not the IBC, exempts worship spaces.

I would not recommend all 1:8 - just too difficult for some (older) without a disability.
 

1030.14.1Ramped aisles.​

Aisles that are sloped more than 1 unit vertical in 20 units horizontal (5-percent slope) shall be considered to be a ramped aisle. Ramped aisles that serve as part of an accessible route in accordance with Sections 1009 and 1109.2 shall have a maximum slope of 1 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (8-percent slope). The slope of other ramped aisles shall not exceed 1 unit vertical in 8 units horizontal (12.5-percent slope)

Bill is this the area of the code that you are getting your 1:8 ratio from.... for the entire floor OK?
Found this while doing a search for IBC "ramped floor" defininition.... doesn't appear to be a definition. So has me wondering where the line is drawn per ramped floor vs floor and if I can potentially use 1029.14 exception 1 to not have fixed seats.
 
OH! You don't want a sloped floor - even 5% or less - without fixed seating. Technically maybe allowed - never considered it because of the discomfort, annoyance, and safety issues.

There are a few theatres at least where the floor tilts - so removable fixed seating on slope or a flat floor for whatever. Houston and New Orleans each have at least one. And a number of new facilities where it's similar - Nashville and San Antonio and many international. Amazing what you can build with hundreds of millions.
 
Question That said:

1030.14.1Ramped aisles.​

Aisles that are sloped more than 1 unit vertical in 20 units horizontal (5-percent slope) shall be considered to be a ramped aisle. Ramped aisles that serve as part of an accessible route in accordance with Sections 1009 and 1109.2 shall have a maximum slope of 1 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (8-percent slope). The slope of other ramped aisles shall not exceed 1 unit vertical in 8 units horizontal (12.5-percent slope)

Bill is this the area of the code that you are getting your 1:8 ratio from.... for the entire floor OK?
Found this while doing a search for IBC "ramped floor" defininition.... doesn't appear to be a definition. So has me wondering where the line is drawn per ramped floor vs floor and if I can potentially use 1029.14 exception 1 to not have fixed seats.
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Yes, that section, and I don't know exception off hand - waiting for car work on car - but I made my feelings known on loose seats on sloped floor.

Yes to raised stage or platform. Find out what users feel is comfortable. 30 to 36" is usually max for pastors comfort - feeling to separated - but there are exceptions. And decide what sightlines criteria is - a dancers feet or a speakers face (including a speaker who uses a wheelchair).

These are questions about intimacy, sight lines, and how a space "feels" - the presenter viewer relationship. I could talk on this for many hours or maybe days.
 
bill1952 said:
I've not worked on a place of worship which didn't fully comply with the accessibility requirements. Too often used for non worship events open to public. I would strongly recommend against it BUT you might be fine legally. And ADA, not the IBC, exempts worship spaces.

I would not recommend all 1:8 - just too difficult for some (older) without a disability.
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Thanks Bill for the clarifications. In your opinion, if you were going to do a single sloped floor what is the max you would go. Opinion appreciated.

And... "OH! You don't want a sloped floor - even 5% or less - without fixed seating. Technically maybe allowed - never considered it because of the discomfort, annoyance, and safety issues."

Yeah, the more I think about this (with everyones input) I'm left wondering if much of this is a good idea. I'm hearing you on the instability.... seems kind of sketchy to me now. I don't like half a**ing things and I think this is where we're headed if not careful heading down this design path.

"There are a few theatres at least where the floor tilts." Definitely going to bring this up to the building commitee. I'm absolutely certain it's in the budget har har.
 
The 1:5, 1:8, 1:12 aisle versus whole floor. Generally where 1:5 aisle ramp, the seating was on level tiers, because cross slope was very uncomfortable (though I believe permitted.) That entry transition to aisle access way could be treacherous also. At 1:8, not so bad but given a choice, the crosslope is not friendly.

In my work and in most that I have toured - 1000s - floor slope equals aisle slope and seats are fixed.
 
Churches are exempt from ADA because the ADA builds on the 1964 Civil Rights law, which churches were exempt from. The IBC goes beyond the ADA and includes churches. Virginia has an exception for raised or lowered areas in places of religious worship "used primarily for the performance of religious ceremonies", but the seating area would still have to be accessible.
 
bill1952 said:
Find out what users feel is comfortable. 30 to 36" is usually max for pastors comfort - feeling to separated - but there are exceptions. And decide what sightlines criteria is - a dancers feet or a speakers face (including a speaker who uses a wheelchair).

These are questions about intimacy, sight lines, and how a space "feels" - the presenter viewer relationship. I could talk on this for many hours or maybe days.
Click to expand...
Thanks again for insight. I can see how this all relates back to a speakers confidence on stage. Interesting.
 
Question That said:
"There are a few theatres at least where the floor tilts."
Click to expand...
See my comment about hundreds of millions.

Tiers like dinner theatres - maybe depth for 3 or 4 or even 5 rows of loose chairs - are a more pragmatic (budget) approach. I'd suggest something but your comment about existing elevations would change that. I general, usually on flat sites, I try to align entry with platform and leave level walkways on either side. Provides an accessible route and avoids stepped footings, and can accomodate processional events. The choir surrounding the congregation at Christmas with candles (?) is quite nice. Graduation and awards also. It's a design concept that has usually been well received.

As far as floor matching aisle slope - as noted, I have had accessible 1:12 aisles on the bias or diagonal with steeper seating. Rare and some additional cost but doable.
 
Churches are exempt from ADA because the ADA builds on the 1964 Civil Rights law, which churches were exempt from. The IBC goes beyond the ADA and includes churches. Virginia has an exception for raised or lowered areas in places of religious worship "used primarily for the performance of religious ceremonies", but the seating area would still have to be accessible.
Interesting on the history of that.
Not following this "The IBC goes beyond the ADA and includes churches".
 
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