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Smoke detectors unnecessary?

M

Mech

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Oct 30, 2009
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Eastern PA
I was at a fire company's banquet hall over the weekend. I looked up at the ceiling and what did I see? A drop ceiling and lights, but no smoke detectors!!!

I have no idea when this was built, but I figured the fire company would lead by example and have detectors installed.
 
Mech,

In Oklahoma the fire departments will give free smoke alarms away to "any" dwelling and install them free. Very few takers. :(
 
"""""""""""but no smoke detectors"""""""""

YEA there was, have not seen a firefighter that cannot detect smoke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
There are some times in commercial buildings were smoke detectors are required: elevator lobbies (which triggers the elevator recall) and unsprinklered buildings (I believe the requirement is every 30' in corridors).
 
It is all about priorities and yes $$$ most FD are volunteer in the USA and do not get or minimal funding from the area they protect. As a result not only do they have to spend time training by also raising $$. If you are just about making ends meet spending funds on something that is not required will not get done.

I recall when we built our firehouse the code required the bays where the equipment are located to be sprinklered. I said let's sprinkler the entire building, it got voted down. The best I could get was to increase the size of the riser to handle the additional area for perhaps future expansion of the system. I also got them to install smoke detection on the 2nd floor where the offices and lounge area was on the reason we sleep in the area when we manned the station during winter storms.

My experience is many firefighters know how to fight fires but have limited knowledge on codes and fire protection systems. I can say this because I have been teaching seminars for them for over 30 years.
 
I can add to that. My fire department was required to install smoke detectors and heat detectors in the hundred year old stations by their insurance carrier. These were required to be hardwired and interconnected (no battery backups needed at that time). At least once a month, on Monday mornings, I come into work to find all of the smoke alarms in the offices, class room, and living quarters to be disconnected. The fire department trains in these rooms on weekends and the fake smoke sets the alarms off, so they remove them and never put them back.
 
If the Fire Service doesn't take the importance of smoke detectors seriously, how can they honestly relay the importance of them to civilians?

Personally, I believe smoke detectors are the single most important way to save lives; we replaced the nasty old smoke detectors in our home with the 10 year battery version.

When my kids were growing up, the smoke detectors also served as a dandy dinner bell for my kids (ok.. I admit.. I'm not a great cook)
 
peach said:
If the Fire Service doesn't take the importance of smoke detectors seriously, how can they honestly relay the importance of them to civilians?Personally, I believe smoke detectors are the single most important way to save lives; we replaced the nasty old smoke detectors in our home with the 10 year battery version.

When my kids were growing up, the smoke detectors also served as a dandy dinner bell for my kids (ok.. I admit.. I'm not a great cook)
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They do take them seriously, but are not needed in a banquet hall for any reason I can think of. If you are there and awake, the smokey is not needed. If nobody is there, the smokey is just an unheard noise.

Brent.
 
Single station and interconected single station smoke detectors generally do two things--wake sleeping people and then burn up with the fire.

Regular smoke detectors as part of a supression system they can be used for activation--not a good idea unless a very clean area like a computer room due to false alarms.

As part of a central station alarm system they can detect the fire and generally burn up in it well before the fire departement gets there.

Putting up single station detectors in a banquet hall would be useless. If occupied then the fire woud be noticed by awake people before the detectors went off, and if unoccupied they would sound and burn up with no one to hear them.
 
That's the only reason I can think of.

So you look up and go "oh good, the smokes are functioning"

In this case, logically, it's just a dormant fixture which could be ignored completely.

Brent.
 
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exactly... most people don't pay attention to them anyway. BUT, since sprinkler systems need to be maintained (and again most people don't know that), the smoke detectors give early warning. IF the smoke detectors aren't functioning and the sprinkler system is off line for some reason, there is no protection to the building occupants.

Personally, I prefer smoke detectors for evacuation rather than rely on the sprinkler system (since the heads won't react to smoke in the building). I don't write the codes, but I hate to see deaths occur because people are trapped in a building.. much better to get them out early. MHO
 
MASSDRIVER said:
Why?Brent
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IPMC [F] 704.1 General.

All systems, devices and equipment to detect a fire, actuate an alarm, or suppress or control a fire or any combination thereof shall be maintained in an operable condition at all times in accordance with the International Fire Code.
 
MikeC said:
IPMC [F] 704.1 General. All systems, devices and equipment to detect a fire, actuate an alarm, or suppress or control a fire or any combination thereof shall be maintained in an operable condition at all times in accordance with the International Fire Code.
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Does the international fire code require smokes in this situation?

Brent
 
IPMC [F] 704.1 General.

All systems, devices and equipment to detect a fire, actuate an alarm, or suppress or control a fire or any combination thereof shall be maintained in an operable condition at all times in accordance with the International Fire Code.

It doesn't say provided in accordance with the IFC. To paraphrase, ALL devices shall be operable at ALL times.

I respectably disagree. I read it to say all devices required by the IFC shall be operable.

If they are not required, their operation is moot.

Allow me to hyperbole.

Let's say I am a crazy artist and my fixation is smoke detectors. But I hate smoke detector noise. So I cover my walls and ceilings with inert smoke detectors in fascinating, yet subtle patterns. I did this in my home. Does the IFC have the authority to mandate all my smokies are operable, other than those required by code?

What if, in the banquet hall, where smokes are not required, Me, the crazy smokies art dude, gets commissioned to a stylistic found object d'art out of...you guessed it...my favorite medium of smoke detectors.

I arrange them on the ceiling in a pattern mimicking the migratory flight pattern of arctic turns in winter.

Does the IFC peeps mandate they be functional?

Brent
 
You are correct that the IFC doesn't require that they be functional. However, IPMC clearly states that ALL devices be maintained in accordance with the IFC. It DOES NOT say that all devices required by the IFC be maintained.

Your scenario above does create an issue. The issue of 1st amendment rights vs. property maintenance is a fine line. IF I ever had to deal with this situation, which I doubt I will, my stance would be the following:

The smoke alarms were not intended to be used as smoke alarms when installed. IFC 807 will need to be complied with. It shall be obvious that the smoke alarms are intended to be art and not functioning smoke alarms. The method of achieving this obvious intent shall be approved. A single smoke alarm in the middle of a ceiling which has not had it's appearance altered will not be accepted. It is my opinion that the method of display should reveal the intent to the untrained person.

Now a question for you. At which point does a non-functioning fire extinguisher in a structure become art or a collectable? Is a non-functional fire extinguisher hanging on a wall bracket considered art? The identical fire extinguisher is hanging on an identical bracket less than five feet away. That one is required by IFC and functional. To the untrained eye, in an emergency situation, they look identical. The building occupant, who is a 9/11/01 buff, calls it a memorial to the lost fire fighters at ground zero.
 
MikeC said:
You are correct that the IFC doesn't require that they be functional. However, IPMC clearly states that ALL devices be maintained in accordance with the IFC. It DOES NOT say that all devices required by the IFC be maintained.Your scenario above does create an issue. The issue of 1st amendment rights vs. property maintenance is a fine line. IF I ever had to deal with this situation, which I doubt I will, my stance would be the following:

The smoke alarms were not intended to be used as smoke alarms when installed. IFC 807 will need to be complied with. It shall be obvious that the smoke alarms are intended to be art and not functioning smoke alarms. The method of achieving this obvious intent shall be approved. A single smoke alarm in the middle of a ceiling which has not had it's appearance altered will not be accepted. It is my opinion that the method of display should reveal the intent to the untrained person.

Now a question for you. At which point does a non-functioning fire extinguisher in a structure become art or a collectable? Is a non-functional fire extinguisher hanging on a wall bracket considered art? The identical fire extinguisher is hanging on an identical bracket less than five feet away. That one is required by IFC and functional. To the untrained eye, in an emergency situation, they look identical. The building occupant, who is a 9/11/01 buff, calls it a memorial to the lost fire fighters at ground zero.
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That's a great scenario, one I will think over. What about vintage fire extinguishers? Ones that are for display, and ones that are functional?

Brent.
 
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