RJJ
Co-Founder
what type of access panel would be able to be used in a smoke partitions? Goes it have to be rated? Seems 710.3 does not require rating!
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Smoke Partitions
- Thread starter RJJ
- Start date
vegas paul
Silver Member
Re: Smoke Partitions
No rating required, unless the smoke barrier is required to be rated by other code requirements.
No rating required, unless the smoke barrier is required to be rated by other code requirements.
RJJ
Co-Founder
Re: Smoke Partitions
That just it, can't find a requirement. So I guess a plastic access panel is ok! Just seems wrong!
That just it, can't find a requirement. So I guess a plastic access panel is ok! Just seems wrong!
vegas paul
Silver Member
Re: Smoke Partitions
RJJ - just to make you feel better (sounds like you are nervous to allow a flimsy access panel!), read the defninition of a Smoke Barrier. "A continuous membrane..." It doesn't even have to be a wall or floor/ceiling assembly, merely a membrane that restricts the movement of smoke.
RJJ - just to make you feel better (sounds like you are nervous to allow a flimsy access panel!), read the defninition of a Smoke Barrier. "A continuous membrane..." It doesn't even have to be a wall or floor/ceiling assembly, merely a membrane that restricts the movement of smoke.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Re: Smoke Partitions
The air leakage rate of the door assembly shall not exceed 3 cubic feet per minute per square foot [ft3/(min × ft2)](0.015424 m3/ s × m2) of door opening at 0.10 inch (24.9Pa) of water for both the ambient temperature test and the elevated temperature exposure test. is a minimal requirement to ask them to achieve.
Maybe, maybe not. Does it meet the requirements of 710.5? It may not have to be fire rated but the access panel and installation need to resist the passage of smoke and
The air leakage rate of the door assembly shall not exceed 3 cubic feet per minute per square foot [ft3/(min × ft2)](0.015424 m3/ s × m2) of door opening at 0.10 inch (24.9Pa) of water for both the ambient temperature test and the elevated temperature exposure test. is a minimal requirement to ask them to achieve.
Re: Smoke Partitions
The air leakage rate of the door assembly shall not exceed 3 cubic feet per minute per square foot [ft3/(min × ft2)](0.015424 m3/ s × m2) of door opening at 0.10 inch (24.9Pa) of water for both the ambient temperature test and the elevated temperature exposure test
That's for a horizontal assemblies.Smoke partions are not required to rated unless blaa blaa.
Hey Rjj did you get hit with that snow.Geesh my back is still sore.
The air leakage rate of the door assembly shall not exceed 3 cubic feet per minute per square foot [ft3/(min × ft2)](0.015424 m3/ s × m2) of door opening at 0.10 inch (24.9Pa) of water for both the ambient temperature test and the elevated temperature exposure test
That's for a horizontal assemblies.Smoke partions are not required to rated unless blaa blaa.
Hey Rjj did you get hit with that snow.Geesh my back is still sore.
RJJ
Co-Founder
Re: Smoke Partitions
reelone: Sure did get hit. Lots of it. Messed up fishing for Sat & Sunday! Way to dangerous for walking the rocks with 2' of snow. I am a little smarter this year after falling down an embankment last year in an ice storm. :roll:
Paul: Not sure that the definition is quite the exact fit for smoke barrier and smoke partition.
Mtlogcabin: I read that section as well and agree. I am stuck on maybe/maybe not part.
A little back ground. I have an I2 three stories. All floors are 2 hr. First floor walls and hall ways are 1hr. Everything is sprinklered! Second and third floors are call out on the plans which I did not review as smoke partitions. During inspection I found 15 different ducts with out fire or smoke dampers. All before me including design people missed this. The fire dampers are in now. Access through the smoke Partition to the dampers access is through a plastic panel. You know the ones that are being installed in many homes etc.
I can get by with the smoke partition although I would rather have it be 1hr rated. The issue is I don't believe these access panel will stop the passage of smoke. They would have no rating. I also believe they compromise the intent of the wall.
reelone: Sure did get hit. Lots of it. Messed up fishing for Sat & Sunday! Way to dangerous for walking the rocks with 2' of snow. I am a little smarter this year after falling down an embankment last year in an ice storm. :roll:
Paul: Not sure that the definition is quite the exact fit for smoke barrier and smoke partition.
Mtlogcabin: I read that section as well and agree. I am stuck on maybe/maybe not part.
A little back ground. I have an I2 three stories. All floors are 2 hr. First floor walls and hall ways are 1hr. Everything is sprinklered! Second and third floors are call out on the plans which I did not review as smoke partitions. During inspection I found 15 different ducts with out fire or smoke dampers. All before me including design people missed this. The fire dampers are in now. Access through the smoke Partition to the dampers access is through a plastic panel. You know the ones that are being installed in many homes etc.
I can get by with the smoke partition although I would rather have it be 1hr rated. The issue is I don't believe these access panel will stop the passage of smoke. They would have no rating. I also believe they compromise the intent of the wall.
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: Smoke Partitions
Rjj,
Are the proposed plastic doors/access panels self-closing? If not, could you use 710.5 “Doors in smoke partitions shall comply with this section” since the access panel consists of a door and possibly revert back to 710.5.3?
If the panel's doors are self closing then the ability to limit the passage of smoke should be met provided they are maintained? I don't believe the issue is the corseness of the panel door but the ability to limit the passage of smoke.
Rjj,
Are the proposed plastic doors/access panels self-closing? If not, could you use 710.5 “Doors in smoke partitions shall comply with this section” since the access panel consists of a door and possibly revert back to 710.5.3?
If the panel's doors are self closing then the ability to limit the passage of smoke should be met provided they are maintained? I don't believe the issue is the corseness of the panel door but the ability to limit the passage of smoke.
Dr. J
Silver Member
Re: Smoke Partitions
Maybe a little more background please? Neither smoke nor fire dampers are required in a smoke partition for ducted penetrations. Only for transfer openings would smoke-only dampers be required, and it is unlikely that there are transfer openings in a hospital. It is also curious why "First floor walls and hall ways are 1hr." if this is I2. If the dampers were not there, neither would the panels, and everything would be hunky-dory.
Re: Smoke Partitions
More info is needed.At first I thought just a membrene penetration in a smoke partition that wasn't rated.Now it seems it's a through penetration in a rated wall which might not even have to rated.Not sure why fire/smoke dampers are needed either.Is it new or renovation?
More info is needed.At first I thought just a membrene penetration in a smoke partition that wasn't rated.Now it seems it's a through penetration in a rated wall which might not even have to rated.Not sure why fire/smoke dampers are needed either.Is it new or renovation?
RJJ
Co-Founder
Re: Smoke Partitions
Dr.J Agree with the no need for fire or smoke dampers in the Partition! I will try to be a little clearer for all!
Ground floor No care uses! All mechanical and back up generator etc. Elevator room and sprinkler room for this section. All corridors are 1hr. Floor above is 2hr deck, floor above 2hr deck. Patient rooms on these two floors. Set up with center hall. Rooms right and left. These two floors contain smoke partitions for the hallway. Within these partition are penetration rising from the lower level at various points for various duct systems that penetrate the floor below rising to the next floor above. These ducts need fire dampers. Pa has its own code regarding health care units. So the call is not just IBC or IMC.
The issue in question is the access panel placed in a fire partition to allow access to the fire damper which has its own access panel. Maybe they should be 1hr enclosures around the ducts. DP plans states these are smoke partitions. The penetration are vertical and not horizontal through this area. The breach is with the plastic panel in the partition.
Dr.J Agree with the no need for fire or smoke dampers in the Partition! I will try to be a little clearer for all!
Ground floor No care uses! All mechanical and back up generator etc. Elevator room and sprinkler room for this section. All corridors are 1hr. Floor above is 2hr deck, floor above 2hr deck. Patient rooms on these two floors. Set up with center hall. Rooms right and left. These two floors contain smoke partitions for the hallway. Within these partition are penetration rising from the lower level at various points for various duct systems that penetrate the floor below rising to the next floor above. These ducts need fire dampers. Pa has its own code regarding health care units. So the call is not just IBC or IMC.
The issue in question is the access panel placed in a fire partition to allow access to the fire damper which has its own access panel. Maybe they should be 1hr enclosures around the ducts. DP plans states these are smoke partitions. The penetration are vertical and not horizontal through this area. The breach is with the plastic panel in the partition.
Dr. J
Silver Member
Re: Smoke Partitions
RE OP - needs to meet the leakage spec. Gasketing as a minimum. No temp spec, plastic not specifically prohibited. Possible angle is to consider the plastic as part of the room finish. If these are one membrane side only, less of an issue than if full penetration.
It is a little silly, but without those exceptions, all one can do for a single floor penetration in an I-2 is build a 2 hour shaft, and have a S/F damper where it both enters and exits the shaft. A reasonable variance would be a S/F damper at the floor, but this is not speciffically allowed. One of the reasons for the non-exception for shafts and Smoke dampers in I occupancies is to maintain the smoke compartmentalization inherant in other provisions of the IBC.
RE OP - needs to meet the leakage spec. Gasketing as a minimum. No temp spec, plastic not specifically prohibited. Possible angle is to consider the plastic as part of the room finish. If these are one membrane side only, less of an issue than if full penetration.
OK - New thread maybe? I do not have access to the codes to quote right now, but I'll bet 716 will not allow that. Per 707, a floor penetration must have a 2 hour shaft enclosure. 716 has various exceptions that allow for a fire-only damper at the floor, but I am pretty sure these exceptions do not include I occupancies.
It is a little silly, but without those exceptions, all one can do for a single floor penetration in an I-2 is build a 2 hour shaft, and have a S/F damper where it both enters and exits the shaft. A reasonable variance would be a S/F damper at the floor, but this is not speciffically allowed. One of the reasons for the non-exception for shafts and Smoke dampers in I occupancies is to maintain the smoke compartmentalization inherant in other provisions of the IBC.