ICE
Oh Well
1.Yes... maybe what is the bus rating of the sub-panel?
2. No...a disconnect is required but not dedicated. So the feeder breaker may work.
Last edited by a moderator:
-
Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades
Solar
- Thread starter ICE
- Start date
2. No...a disconnect is required but not dedicated. So the feeder breaker may work.
Thanks ICE.
Bus rating 125A.
Dedicate disconnect not required I'm OK with this too, just don't quite understand what NEC want.
705.12.A allow connection to the supply side of the service.
705.12.D1 require a dedicate breaker or disconnect "but didn't specify at main or any sub within premises"
Personally, I like the wording in CA Solar Permitting Guidebook on pg 26. It said "No electrical loads shall be connected between the output of the inverter
and the connection to the house electrical panel"
http://opr.ca.gov/docs/California_Solar_Permitting_Guidebook.pdf
Bus rating 125A.
Dedicate disconnect not required I'm OK with this too, just don't quite understand what NEC want.
705.12.A allow connection to the supply side of the service.
705.12.D1 require a dedicate breaker or disconnect "but didn't specify at main or any sub within premises"
Personally, I like the wording in CA Solar Permitting Guidebook on pg 26. It said "No electrical loads shall be connected between the output of the inverter
and the connection to the house electrical panel"
http://opr.ca.gov/docs/California_Solar_Permitting_Guidebook.pdf
ICE
Oh Well
Span said:
That will be the case at the point of connection at the sub-panel. I misspoke when I said: "a disconnect is required but not dedicated" I was focused on the feeder breaker, which clearly is not dedicated.
The sub-panel is the "house electrical panel". There are no loads between the inverter and the sub-panel.
One of the tricky parts of this arrangement will be the labeling.
Last edited by a moderator:
ICE
Oh Well
I had not heard the term until you pointed it out. I have encountered the sub-panel connection only a few times.Span said:
ICE
Oh Well
Both of the wires were inside the c-crimp. It looked odd in that there were no marks from a crimp tool or pliers yet the crimp was closed. I pulled on it and it slipped right off.
ICE
Oh Well
These flashing are not on the plans. The worker pointed that out several times along with the statement that "Since they are not on the plans, they can't possibly be installed incorrectly".
ICE
Oh Well
We keep letting these solar installers do service upgrades. Here we are again with a service mounted over a hole in the wall. And don't even tell me that there's no conductor splices in that hole.
The contractor says that the owner installed the receptacle so it's not his correction to deal with.
The contractor says that the owner installed the receptacle so it's not his correction to deal with.
ICE
Oh Well
The service is behind the bush.
The orange NM is solar. Micro-inverters so it is AC on the NM.
The orange NM is solar. Micro-inverters so it is AC on the NM.
Paul Sweet
Sawhorse
That TV dish in #134 is going to put quite a dent in the output of the panels.
conarb
Registered User
Good point, and since output is cancelled ahead of all shadows, maybe 50% reduction? Also, aren't they supposed to be 3' off the eaves and valley for firemen to walk?Paul Sweet said:
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Depends on the roof
605.11.3.2 Residential systems for one- and two-family dwellings.
Access to residential systems for one- and two-family dwellings shall be provided in accordance with Sections 605.11.3.2.1 through 605.11.3.2.4.
605.11.3.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a structurally strong location on the building capable of supporting the live load of fire fighters accessing the roof.
Exception: These requirements shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.2 Residential buildings with a single ridge.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with a single ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two, 3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located.
Exception: This requirement shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.3 Residential buildings with roof hips and valleys.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with roof hips and valleys shall be located no closer than 18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or valley. Where panels are to be located on only one side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent to the hip or valley.
Exception: These requirements shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.4 Residential building smoke ventilation.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings shall be located no higher than 3 feet (914 mm) below the ridge in order to allow for fire department smoke ventilation operations.
605.11.3.2 Residential systems for one- and two-family dwellings.
Access to residential systems for one- and two-family dwellings shall be provided in accordance with Sections 605.11.3.2.1 through 605.11.3.2.4.
605.11.3.2.1 Residential buildings with hip roof layouts.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with hip roof layouts shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located. The access pathway shall be located at a structurally strong location on the building capable of supporting the live load of fire fighters accessing the roof.
Exception: These requirements shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.2 Residential buildings with a single ridge.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with a single ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two, 3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/modules are located.
Exception: This requirement shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.3 Residential buildings with roof hips and valleys.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings with roof hips and valleys shall be located no closer than 18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or valley. Where panels are to be located on only one side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent to the hip or valley.
Exception: These requirements shall not apply to roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (2:12) or less.
605.11.3.2.4 Residential building smoke ventilation.
Panels/modules installed on residential buildings shall be located no higher than 3 feet (914 mm) below the ridge in order to allow for fire department smoke ventilation operations.
steveray
SAWHORSE
If they use micro inverters, one shaded panel does not kill the "string".....conarb said:
#135 The outlet box connector is not an approved box fastening device, I might ask for screws and common neutral identify each pair at both end and double pole breaker. If the new panel with old wires OK, if new wires from back of the old panel it always means they need access opening.
#136 For solar if conduit turning into attic with romax I'll pay attention next.
#134 Can inspector verify solar performance? and most of solar did not specify conduit space above roof I always wondering whether I should use T310.15.B.3.c
#136 For solar if conduit turning into attic with romax I'll pay attention next.
#134 Can inspector verify solar performance? and most of solar did not specify conduit space above roof I always wondering whether I should use T310.15.B.3.c
ICE
Oh Well
It is near 10:00AM and the shadows indicate that the PV array will never see direct sunlight. They face north.
At the first inspection there was a old panel next to the new one seen here on the left. I wrote a correction that stated that the old panel would not be allowed to accept a PV contribution as there was no main and six or more breakers.
So they turned the box on the left into a j-box and installed a service upgrade.
Silly me, I asked for a structural strap across the over-bored top plates. What I failed to do was tell them exactly how to do that. So he says does that mean that we can't plaster. That and the fact that there's no lath point towards that being a no.
And they call themselves electricians.
At the first inspection there was a old panel next to the new one seen here on the left. I wrote a correction that stated that the old panel would not be allowed to accept a PV contribution as there was no main and six or more breakers.
So they turned the box on the left into a j-box and installed a service upgrade.
Silly me, I asked for a structural strap across the over-bored top plates. What I failed to do was tell them exactly how to do that. So he says does that mean that we can't plaster. That and the fact that there's no lath point towards that being a no.
And they call themselves electricians.
ICE
Oh Well
The roof was tile. Where the solar will be, the tile has been replaced with asphalt shingles.
It looks like the Skinny Man is doing inspections
The plan is to reinstall the tile across the leading edge of the roof.
Water will be looking for a way out....but wait a minute here they say, there's weep holes in that sheet metal. Well cry me a river.
It looks like the Skinny Man is doing inspections
The plan is to reinstall the tile across the leading edge of the roof.
Water will be looking for a way out....but wait a minute here they say, there's weep holes in that sheet metal. Well cry me a river.
Last edited by a moderator:
ICE
Oh Well
According to the plans, that is the FD setback.
And they did a service upgrade too.
And they did a service upgrade too.
Last edited by a moderator:
ICE
Oh Well
I'm one of the few inspectors around here that requires a torque wrench. I gave these two that correction at the previous inspection. Today they had the correct lay-in lugs installed. The surface was prepared and there is antioxidant at each lug. None of the lugs are bent.
So I asked them if they torqued the hardware. Absolutely they replied. I said, "Show me your torque wrench". Here they are cutting the package open with tin snips. They got it out of the wrapper but alas and alack, they had no sockets. Thankfully the HO had a socket. Then I told them AGAIN that they have to torque the set screw also.
I have to deal with complete idiots.....and the solar industry is just getting started. What's worse is that the people that hired these idiots think that they are all top notch. The easy money brought a flood of entrepreneurs which is okay as long as they hire qualified installers. But you see, that is too costly and they are getting away with the shoddy work
Feature this folks. I put these people through a thorough inspection and they hate that. They do crap work here, there and everywhere....and a lot of it. I know that few inspectors pay attention to the details. I know that because these people don't save the crap work just for me. They haven't had anyone tell them that a c-crimp tool exists or that the colored dots have a special meaning. I have to explain what a wet location wire nut is...every time. The service upgrades are atrocious. The last picture in the post before this one has four or more violations and there was a total of 16 for that job.
In the long run, it may not matter. If solar installations don't start failing left and right, the crap work will have been good enough. I have wondered about that concept in the past. Some of the corrections that I write are almost esoteric. The question arises asking whether it is all worth it considering the low failure rate. Then something like the solar industry comes along and the experiment gets kicked into high gear. If within ten years there aren't people getting electrocuted and houses burned down by failed solar, I'll be ready to toss in the towel. On the other hand, I don't think we are in for a party. At the least, there's gonna be a lot of solar in the landfill.
So I asked them if they torqued the hardware. Absolutely they replied. I said, "Show me your torque wrench". Here they are cutting the package open with tin snips. They got it out of the wrapper but alas and alack, they had no sockets. Thankfully the HO had a socket. Then I told them AGAIN that they have to torque the set screw also.
I have to deal with complete idiots.....and the solar industry is just getting started. What's worse is that the people that hired these idiots think that they are all top notch. The easy money brought a flood of entrepreneurs which is okay as long as they hire qualified installers. But you see, that is too costly and they are getting away with the shoddy work
Feature this folks. I put these people through a thorough inspection and they hate that. They do crap work here, there and everywhere....and a lot of it. I know that few inspectors pay attention to the details. I know that because these people don't save the crap work just for me. They haven't had anyone tell them that a c-crimp tool exists or that the colored dots have a special meaning. I have to explain what a wet location wire nut is...every time. The service upgrades are atrocious. The last picture in the post before this one has four or more violations and there was a total of 16 for that job.
In the long run, it may not matter. If solar installations don't start failing left and right, the crap work will have been good enough. I have wondered about that concept in the past. Some of the corrections that I write are almost esoteric. The question arises asking whether it is all worth it considering the low failure rate. Then something like the solar industry comes along and the experiment gets kicked into high gear. If within ten years there aren't people getting electrocuted and houses burned down by failed solar, I'll be ready to toss in the towel. On the other hand, I don't think we are in for a party. At the least, there's gonna be a lot of solar in the landfill.
Last edited by a moderator:
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
It's a long term disaster.
In 10 years or so I'm going to make my millions removing solar panels and fixing the damage.
It's just like asbestos.
Brent.
In 10 years or so I'm going to make my millions removing solar panels and fixing the damage.
It's just like asbestos.
Brent.
ICE, I had to share something with you, there's federal grant money out there behind this madness!
Just had the solar gal inquiry how long do I take to do a review, how much are the permit cost, how soon can a permit be picked up, does the plans need stamped, how can we streamline the process? Do we have any zoning restrictions, can joe homeowner pull a permit, how many pages is the permit application?
I get the idea that AHJ's kinda give the solar industry some friction when trying to get a solar project going. I told her I hope your not trying to do what their doing in Califoria here cuz I've seen the pictures and get the real story here!
Thanks ICE,
Pc1
Just had the solar gal inquiry how long do I take to do a review, how much are the permit cost, how soon can a permit be picked up, does the plans need stamped, how can we streamline the process? Do we have any zoning restrictions, can joe homeowner pull a permit, how many pages is the permit application?
I get the idea that AHJ's kinda give the solar industry some friction when trying to get a solar project going. I told her I hope your not trying to do what their doing in Califoria here cuz I've seen the pictures and get the real story here!
Thanks ICE,
Pc1
ICE
Oh Well
I don't know how it has developed in your locale but there has been a onslaught of solar permits here. I am but one inspector and my file has around sixty active solar jobs. The median income in my area is ripe for solar. There is a demand for a cost saving enterprise and not enough smarts to understand that solar is a bad idea. The big players own the equipment and reap the rebates as they rape the owner. Hells bells, these people can't even sell their property without getting the buyer approved by the solar company that has a lease on the roof.Pcinspector1 said:
The state government wants a million solar roofs. The Governor is green to the bone and has facilitated the solar industry in ways that are unheard of. For example, there can be outstanding issues such as expired permits, work done without permits, converted garages and bootlegged whatever, all of which will not be an impediment to getting a permit for solar.
A law kicks in September 1,2015 that requires a 24 hour turnaround on solar applications. That means that all solar plan checks will be done over the counter. There are financial constraints on the cost of a permit and the AHJ can require only one inspection which will be the final inspection. I have even heard of a push to eliminate AHJ inspections altogether. The thinking is that the equipment is always the same and this can be so standardized that, well what could be wrong?
The one inspection rule will be nothing but trouble. Telling them to remove the modules because of one violation or another is not going to go down easy. I envision most jurisdictions giving up. And let's be honest about this, many jurisdictions don't perform a competent inspection now so why think that they will do any better in the future. You know, you can't inspect what you can't see.
When I do a final inspection I will invariably ask to have a module removed so that I can inspect the ground lug that is attached to the module frame. So often, the kid that met me for the inspection says that he doesn't have any tools or training, so no he will not remove a module. Now there is another inspection required....but that's okay because the owner isn't home and I can't verify the detectors so I had to show up again anyway.
At the next inspection the kid can remove a module only to discover that the lugs are wrong. The owner is there this time and not happy about it. It gets worse when the owner finds out that each bedroom requires a detector. He snarls at me, "Why didn't you tell me that before now"? Now comes the fourth or fifth inspection. Can you say "water heater"?
I was in attendance at a symposium of solar industry players when a Building Official that sits on a state committee told the crowd that a solar inspection should take no more time to inspect than a water heater. I interrupted with the statement that I can inspect a water heater in the time that it takes to say "water heater". The people leading the charge have deluded expectations.
Last edited by a moderator:
Edmcl
Member
We are lucky to have a majority of the solar contractors in the area that actually care and take pride in their work. It is rare that i see the crap that you deal with. They are more than willing to show me that they have torqued everything correctly. All the panels are open and they are proud of and take ownership of the work that they do.
ICE
Oh Well
Maybe I should move...oh wait a minute, I couldn't afford to live anywhere near Pleasant Hill.