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Sprinkler debate

I am two weeks away from my state law enforcement license.

I understand and accept that there are certain dangers associated with law enforcement.

Likewise, firefighters should understand and accept that there are certain dangers associated with firefighting.

Just like I choose to run into buildings with an active shooter, firefighters choose to run into buildings that are on fire.

Law enforcement officers do not require homeowners to purchase burglar alarms.

Likewise, firefighters should not require homeowners to purchase fire sprinkler systems.

Both law enforcement and firefighting are dangerous occupations.

If you can't accept that, find another career path.

Forcing homeowners to change just because you are scared of the dangers is not a valid argument.

PS. this is not a cheap shot at firefighters, just an opinion based on logic and facts.
 
Much respect as always, and kudos!

I am working on a sprinkler design that creates a win/win for users/responders addressing the concerns for water damage, water purveyor's greed and freezing that lead to the wide ranges of regional heartburn. I may have just found my end of the rainbow!
 
packsaddle said:
I am two weeks away from my state law enforcement license. I understand and accept that there are certain dangers associated with law enforcement.

Likewise, firefighters should understand and accept that there are certain dangers associated with firefighting.

Just like I choose to run into buildings with an active shooter, firefighters choose to run into buildings that are on fire.

Law enforcement officers do not require homeowners to purchase burglar alarms.

Likewise, firefighters should not require homeowners to purchase fire sprinkler systems.

Both law enforcement and firefighting are dangerous occupations.

If you can't accept that, find another career path.

Forcing homeowners to change just because you are scared of the dangers is not a valid argument.

PS. this is not a cheap shot at firefighters, just an opinion based on logic and facts.
I had to give it up due to injury. But if I were still "in", I would be willing to give up sprinklers if the builders gave up lightweight construction in lieu of traditional dimensional lumber building methods. With your train of thought, why have any building codes at all?
 
From what I understand the fire guy from Tennessee, Shane Ray I believe, is basically advocating that firefighters are idiots for entering any building that is on fire when they know that no one is in the burning building. Based on response times and how long the fire was burning prior to a fire call being received by the fire dept, the issue of engineered lumber or dimensional lumber is of little or no consequence. Whining about how dangerous a burning building is comparable to a cropduster complaining about the dangers of his job. If you do not have the stomach for it, find a different damn job.
 
I have never, not once, ever, dragged a body out of, or had to help the coroner's office package up a dead body inside a sprinklered dwelling.
How many single family dwelling fires in those 21 years had sprinklers?
 
According to a study conducted by the New England Journal of Medicine, the greatest risk of fire death occurs in mobile/manufactured homes.

If life safety was truly the primary motive, the NFPA and other special interest groups would not have targeted new single family dwellings.

As always, it only about the money.
 
incognito said:
Anytime you make a significant addition to the code, such as adding smoke detectors, wouldn't you want to have accurate data as to their effectiveness?
The NFPA has released data on the effectiveness of smoke alarms: [highlight]NFPA reports 99.45% survival rate with smoke alarms![/highlight]

Data from 2000 to 2004 was presented in a January 2008 NFPA report, though apparently not widely circulated:

  • The chances of surviving a reported home fire when working smoke alarms are present are 99.45%
  • In 2000-2004, an average of 1,020 people per year (34% of the home structure fire fatalities) died in homes with working smoke alarms.
  • Two-thirds of the smoke alarms in U.S. non-confined homes structure fires with this equipment were powered by batteries only. These fires resulted in 73% of the associated deaths. The 15% percent of incidents with hardwired smoke alarms with battery backup resulted in 10% of the deaths. The 14% of reported fires with smoke alarms that were hardwired only resulted in 12% of the deaths.
Based on this NFPA report that modern interconnected smoke alarms support a 99.45% survival rate in a house fire, then the potential improvement to life safety by adding RFSS is about half-a-percent.

I think there is more to ask about a residential fire death in a modern home than "Were there sprinklers?" Based on this report, it would suggest that the question should also be asked, "Were there working smoke alarms?" If there were working smoke alarms, then "What may have contributed to occupant inability to self-rescue?"

Even with this demonstrated effectiveness of smoke alarms, there is always room for improvement. In the absence of RFSS, perhaps one approach could be to add a provision to ensure a means of vertical descent from rescue windows located a certain elevation above grade below. Another addition could be to provide increased coverage by interconnected smoke alarms throughout more of the home.

It's been a while since I have been up to fish or visit family at SJC, but I still sport my t-shirt from SFD (though it is getting a little ratty) - I may be up in Kodiak next month, but I don't think there's a connection through Sitka. Good luck on your hunt for a speaker!
 
Aegis: As always good info! I am aware of the report. I also agree that other means could have be employed for residential fire protection and over all life safety. The fact remains that RFS are now a fact. Reports such as you listed would not have supported the sprinkler cause. Thus, we have a mandated. My feeling is before the sprinklers activate those still in the house would be dead. Some/all alarms should be the main point of any overall protection. This has been put on the back page for obvious reasons. IMHO

Go Fishing and bag work! The work will be there when you return. The fish might not be!
 
with all the other discussion about RFS, including "they don't need maintenance", I still hate to see them required. If I want one, I'll put it in. No different than saying my chimney never needs to be swept, or the dryer duct doesn't need to be cleaned. Homeowners and renters (and rental property maintenance companies), don't always fathom requirements. so when the place burns because the dryer duct is clogged or the fireplace smolders and CO kills a family - where does the responsibility lie?
 
"where does the responsibility lie!"

It has to lie with each individual. Inspectors can only do so much, code the same, and government virtually nothing.

If may house burns because I didn't clean the dryer duct my bad!

If I disconnect the air bag or don't put on the seat belt my bad!

If I don't watch my childern and one falls in a pool my bad!

or out of a window again my bad!

we have to assume some responsibility! Inspectors and code can only do so much!
 
Though I'm sure it's yet another sign of the apocalypse, I have to say congratulations to pack on your upcoming accomplishment!

Gotta go now. Lot's of bottled water and ammunition to buy . . .
 
pg,

don't forget the dehydrated food.

and I hope you're not looking for any .45 ammo.

it's all in my safe.
 
FM William Burns said:
Can't wait to meet Officer Packsaddle....lawman :) Kudos again and be safe!
fmburns,

careful what you wish for! he may want to do a full body cavity search! :mrgreen:
 
Builders concerned about sprinkler mandate

BY COURTENAY EDELHART, Californian staff writer

cedelhart@bakersfield.com | Wednesday, Sep 22 2010 05:31 PM

Last Updated Wednesday, Sep 22 2010 05:31 PM

http://www.bakersfield.com/news/local/x174836197/Builders-concerned-about-sprinkler-mandate

Homebuilders are bracing themselves for the latest state building code update, which mandates interior sprinkler systems in new single- and two-family homes built in California starting Jan. 1.

A recent Fire Protection Research Foundation study estimated that will add $1.61 per square foot to the cost of a new home. Local builders dispute that figure and say it could be as much as $6 per square foot.

Either way, the Office of the State Fire Marshal says indoor sprinklers are a desperately needed safety feature because as many as 3,000 people a year die in residential fires.

Builders say the new mandate is kicking them when they're down.

"In the market we live in right now, there's no room for these kinds of mandatory extra costs," said David Cates, president of Bakersfield-based Lenox Homes, who said installing sprinklers will add $3,000 to $6,000 to the cost of one of his starter homes.

Buyers of larger houses might find the money for that by downsizing, Cates said, but people shopping for smaller homes could be priced out of the market entirely.

"My prices start at $139,000. To add $6,000 on top of that is huge," Cates said.

Roger Cortez, owner of G.J. Gardner Homes, said the sprinkler requirement is especially burdensome because the state also has mandated stricter standards for energy efficiency beginning next year, and that, too, is eating into thin profit margins.

"They're just loading more and more stuff on us," Cortez said.

At the same time, he acknowledged that if he were building a home for someone he loved, he would want it to have sprinklers.

The updated California Building Standards Code reflects the recommendations of the International Residential Code, which is hammered out by a multinational coalition of fire officials, mechanical experts, architects, builders and other industry professionals. The group's recommendations aren't binding unless deemed so by government agencies, but they often are adopted by state and local jurisdictions.

Indoor sprinklers won't be a selling point, said Jeanne Radsick, owner of Century 21 Hometown Realty in Bakersfield.

"In all the years I've been selling new construction, no one ever wanted to have sprinklers," Radsick said. "They're ugly and expensive. Talk about crippling an already crippled industry. This is unbelievable."

Kevin Reinertson is the division chief for code development and analysis for the Office of the State Fire Marshal.

He said he's sympathetic to builders struggling in a weak economy, but insisted "there really is no wrong time to do this. These are fire and life safety issues."

Also, on the consumer side, homeowner insurance discounts may offset some of the pain of the higher purchase price, Reinertson said.

The foundation study looked at 10 communities that already mandate indoor sprinklers and found that the average premium discount was 7 percent.

Sprinklers are triggered by extremely intense heat from flames, not smoke, so a routine burned casserole won't send water showering down from the ceiling, Reinertson said. The water also is head-specific, meaning only the immediate area over the flames will go off.

Sprinklers won't necessarily put out a blaze, but they can buy enough time for a family to escape safely, Reinertson said.

"Even if firefighters are nearby and get there in five minutes, sometimes that's too late," he said. "Five minutes could be all it takes."
 
Well it sure is nice that they included us in the article. Fire fighters are the first mentioned and building officials/inspectors are relegated to "other industry professionals".
 
jar546,

I think part of the reason you don't see 200 posts on this subject right now is it has been debated and debated on this board. Most folks have decided what side of the debate they are on and realize they probably are not going to change the other side and until there is some additional facts, breakthroughs or whatever nobody is going to change their mind.

Now the article posted by Mark Handler above says that 3000 people a year die in fires. Another article posted in this thread said that 1020 persons on average die each year in homes that have working smoke detectors. This may sound mean, cruel or whatever but 3000 people a year is 0.000967 of one percent of the total population of the nation. (that's 3000 people with a total US population of 310,327,062 as I write this) The census says we are at a rate in 2010 for new homes to number 288,000, at $3000/home for SFR sprinklers that is $288,000 per life saved if sprinklers would save all that died in fires.

If money is no object when it comes to saving lives why not require all new dwelling units to be constructed of Type 1 construction only. Lets not allow anything in the home that is flammable or at least that hasn't been fire retardent treated. Require that all bedrooms in the structure have a seperate door to the exterior and a type 1 stair tower if it is above or below grade. Require a concrete wall and a two hour door between the sleeping rooms and the rest of the house and require it to be closed when the people are asleep.

More people on average die in the United States from the flu each year than die in fires. Should we require everyone to take the flu shots each year. Should we have the power to send people to the doctor for a diagnosis if we suspect they might have the flu then isolate them. Have bathroom police to make sure every one washes their hands each time. Heck almost 800,000 people a year have to seek medical treatment for dog bites and over half of those are kids under age 18, should we ban dogs, ban contact between dogs and children, make all dogs where a muzzle all the time just in case. That should cut down the risk. (tongue in cheek guys and gals I like dogs)

I guess for me the cost of SFR sprinklers doesn't make sense, based on the dollars per life saved. Heck the money we are talking about if spent on food in the third world countries would probably save more lives per year.

OK I opened my mouth, let me have it, I have been in inspections for almost 30 years and my skin is thick. :)
 
This may sound mean, cruel or whatever but 3000 people a year is 0.000967 of one percent of the total population of the nation. (that's 3000 people with a total US population of 310,327,062 as I write this)
An acceptable loss is a sacrifice that is deemed an acceptable cost of doing business. For instance, a church may deem the loss of members who disagree with an evangelical shift to be acceptable if the alternative is to forgo other goals.[1] Anticipated casualties in a military campaign may be held to be acceptable losses as well.[2] A terrorist group may consider the loss of its own members in suicide attacks to be acceptable losses needed to accomplish the mission.[3] The implications of the term may be summed up as "What are we willing to lose to achieve a goal?"

So what is the acceptable loss of people each year in a residential fire? 0, 100 maybe 1,000. What is the goal that is trying to be achieved? Zero loss of life is unrealistic, 1,000 is okay. 2,000 is to many, who says. Life is not fair or equal, residential fires are a fact of life and people will die, Yes it is hard to accept and those in the fire service have a very difficult job and if their goal is zero loss of life in residential fires then they are living in a fantasy dream world
 
Another problem is the fraudulent statistics provided by the sprinkler industry, the only group with the financial incentive to keep and provide statistics; for an example, I'm sure everyone here has read about the 7 deaths from our San Bruno gas pipe explosion, those 7 will be added to the anywhere from 1,000 to 3,000 yearly in-home fire deaths we hear about, yet the first thing to go was the water lines, firemen didn't even have hydrants much less water into homes burning.

Another example is 25 people were added to the 1991 statistics due to our Oakland Hills Fire, the first thing to go was water, this was complicated by the shear incompetence of the various grossly overpaid fire departments.

\ said:
For a variety of reasons, the firefighting teams were initially overwhelmed by the firestorm. The winds were gusting at times in excess of 70 mph (110 km/h), creating erratic and extreme fire behavior. Flames took out power lines to seventeen pumping stations in the Oakland water system. Outside fire teams faced various equipment compatibility issues such as hydrants having the wrong size outlets for the hoses used by neighboring counties. Oakland was also not able to communicate with many mutual aid resources due to antiquated equipment and lack of access to statewide radio frequencies brought on by the budget restrictions in the preceding years. In some areas, firefighters simply ran out of water as there was no power to refill the emptied reservoirs¹
Fire sprinklers couldn't have saved one life in San Bruno or the Berkeley-Oakland Hills, yet those 32 lives will be added to the fraudulent information.

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Hills_firestorm
 
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