Sprinkler required?

[Mr. Inspector]

I don't see anything where it says sprinklers are required. Ask them where it says that.

 

[Joe.B]

Ah, right, so maybe the comment from FD was assuming that there were already some sprinklers. So you politely point out that there aren't any existing so the sections they referenced aren't applicable to your project.

Assumptions....

 

[mailtruck]

Something is missing.

Wisconsin is also under the IEBC existing building code.

Plus they do not have their codes online, so we can see the entire sections, of what you are citing.

I do not see how they are getting to a fire sprinkler system, with the wording you posted.


How big is the ENTIRE building you are in,, square feet?

One way to go is hire a code consultant to look at the code, your building, and what you want to do, to see if they agree,,,

Plus be the mouthpiece for you in front of the city.

Appears the money you give the consultant will help you save money.

If we measure by outside walls. 8967 sq ft
Both floors and basement included

 

[cda]

If we measure by outside walls. 8967 sq ft
Both floors and basement included

Ok now you throw in the basement

How many square feet??

Is it part of the space you are using now??

If so for what use???

Or do you want to expand into the basement??? Same question what use??

 

[mailtruck]

Ok now you throw in the basement

How many square feet??

Is it part of the space you are using now??

If so for what use???

Or do you want to expand into the basement??? Same question what use??

Basement is not used it is part of the space I'm occupying.

 

[cda]

Basement is not used it is part of the space I'm occupying.

Getting closer

You already occupy the basement??

And you want to add more retail area to the basement ??

Indirectly, if the building was built now, more than likely the basement would require a fire sprinkler system.

Without a floor plan or seeing it, a little hard to give guidance.

In away if the basement has no sprinkler system now and you are not making it more hazardous,, as in exiting,,, seems hard to justify a sprinkler system..,


Hire a consultant,,, that can put eyes on

 

[mailtruck]

Getting closer

You already occupy the basement??

And you want to add more retail area to the basement ??

Indirectly, if the building was built now, more than likely the basement would require a fire sprinkler system.

Without a floor plan or seeing it, a little hard to give guidance.

In away if the basement has no sprinkler system now and you are not making it more hazardous,, as in exiting,,, seems hard to justify a sprinkler system..,


Hire a consultant,,, that can put eyes on

No, no occupancy of the basement. I just included the sq ft of basement to answer the question of total building sq footage.

 

[cda]

No, no occupancy of the basement. I just included the sq ft of basement to answer the question of total building sq footage.

Ok back to than not sure why they are requiring a fire sprinkler system???

You can either get a code consultant to help you,,,,, or set down with the FD and play Columbo and have them spell out in very easy terms why it is required, than post their response here.

 

[cda]

Seems like the building official would be making noise, requiring a fire sprinkler system,,, but you say he is quiet on the subject??

 

[Paul Sweet]

Check the law establishing a building code & fire code in Wisconsin. Does it allow municipalities to adopt laws that overlap the adopted code(s) and are stricter?

It sounds like the fire codes and building codes aren't coordinated very well.

They might be interpreting "If the use of an existing building is changed to a new use ..." stricter than intended.

 

[mailtruck]

Check the law establishing a building code & fire code in Wisconsin. Does it allow municipalities to adopt laws that overlap the adopted code(s) and are stricter?

It sounds like the fire codes and building codes aren't coordinated very well.

They might be interpreting "If the use of an existing building is changed to a new use ..." stricter than intended.

Yes they are using the municipal code that is stricter.

A Meeting with fire, building and architect results:
Change of use not cited. Building code not cited and put aside.

Fire Department stated that the openings between the two spaces constituted an addition to my current space. All of the additional space would be considered new and an addition. putting us over the 50% remodeling cited in act 270 which adds remodeling over time.
Fire is stating that the openings are Level 2 alterations.

We were at 11% and calculating the entire additional space would be over 50%

Any opening would not be allowed with out a sprinkler.

 

[cda]

Yes they are using the municipal code that is stricter.

A Meeting with fire, building and architect results:
Change of use not cited. Building code not cited and put aside.

Fire Department stated that the openings between the two spaces constituted an addition to my current space. All of the additional space would be considered new and an addition. putting us over the 50% remodeling cited in act 270 which adds remodeling over time.
Fire is stating that the openings are Level 2 alterations.

We were at 11% and calculating the entire additional space would be over 50%

Any opening would not be allowed with out a sprinkler.

Boy they got the code stretcher out for that one.

I assume another business could move in next to you,,, And that would not require sprinklers??

So just add enough to hit 49%!!!!!!!!!

 

[cda]

So say you had 900 sq ft of lease space

You decide to open a wall and add 500 sq ft more

You would have to add fire sprinklers???

Seems like not being applied correctly,

 

[mtlogcabin]

Fire Department stated that the openings between the two spaces constituted an addition to my current space.

It is not an addition according to the definition in the I-Codes. Check your local definition. Also under the IEBC you get to pick which method you use not the AHJ

A] ADDITION. An extension or increase in floor area, number of stories, or height of a building or structure.

301.3 Alteration, addition or change of occupancy.
The alteration, addition or change of occupancy of all existing buildings shall comply with one of the methods listed in Section 301.3.1, 301.3.2 or 301.3.3 as selected by the applicant. Sections 301.3.1 through 301.3.3 shall not be applied in combination with each other.

Exception: Subject to the approval of the code official, alterations complying with the laws in existence at the time the building or the affected portion of the building was built shall be considered in compliance with the provisions of this code. New structural members added as part of the alteration shall comply with the International Building Code. This exception shall not apply to alterations that constitute substantial improvement in flood hazard areas, which shall comply with Section 503.2, 701.3 or 1301.3.3. This exception shall not apply to the structural provisions of Chapter 5 or to the structural provisions of Sections 706, 806 and 906.

301.3.1 Prescriptive compliance method.
Alterations, additions and changes of occupancy complying with Chapter 5 of this code in buildings complying with the International Fire Code shall be considered in compliance with the provisions of this code.

301.3.2 Work area compliance method.
Alterations, additions and changes of occupancy complying with the applicable requirements of Chapters 6 through 12 of this code shall be considered in compliance with the provisions of this code.

301.3.3 Performance compliance method.
Alterations, additions and changes of occupancy complying with Chapter 13 of this code shall be considered in compliance with the provisions of this code.

 

[steveray]

New openings are level 2, but I see nothing that would make it a 50% work area (which would make it level 3)......

 

[BayPointArchitect]

So let's go with the most restrictive level 3 of the IEBC. Section 904 of the IEBC states that an automatic sprinkler system shall be provided in a work area where any of the following exist:
1) A Group F-1 occupancy used for the manufacture of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet.
2) A Group M occupancy used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet.
3) A Group S-1 occupancy used for the storage of upholstered furniture or mattress exceeds 2,500 square feet.

But we have already established that you are not selling upholstered furniture or mattresses. So I see nothing in the building code that would require a sprinkler system.

I think you are dealing with a different kind of code. The NFPA 101 Life Safety Code section 36.3.5, "New Mercantile Occupancies" requires a sprinkler system for the following:

1) Throughout all mercantile occupancies three or more stories in height.
2) Throughout all mercantile occupancies exceeding 12,000 square feet in gross area.
3) Throughout stories below the level of exit discharge where such stories have an area exceeding 2,500 square feet and are used for the sale, storage, or handling of combustible goods and merchandise.
4) Throughout multiple occupancies protected as mixed occupancies in accordance with 6.1.14 where the conditions of 36.3.5.1(1), (2), or (3) apply to the mercantile occupancy.

So how big is your basement? Is it more than 2,500 square feet?
For your local fire investigator to simply make reference to NFPA 13 is lame. That's like making reference to ICC 500 and then saying that your building needs to restructured in a way that it becomes a community tornado shelter.

See if this language is palatable for your local NFPA-certified fire investigator:

NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, Section 2.1(3)
Existing buildings or installation that do not comply with the provisions of the codes or standards referenced in this chapter shall be permitted to be continued in service, provided that the lack of conformity with these documents does not present a serious hazard to the occupants as determined by the authority having jurisdiction.

Otherwise, I am not seeing why a mixed occupancy building with mercantile and less than 12,000 S.F. needs to be sprinkled.

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IBC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner

 

[mailtruck]

So let's go with the most restrictive level 3 of the IEBC. Section 904 of the IEBC states that an automatic sprinkler system shall be provided in a work area where any of the following exist:
1) A Group F-1 occupancy used for the manufacture of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet.
2) A Group M occupancy used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet.
3) A Group S-1 occupancy used for the storage of upholstered furniture or mattress exceeds 2,500 square feet.

But we have already established that you are not selling upholstered furniture or mattresses. So I see nothing in the building code that would require a sprinkler system.

I think you are dealing with a different kind of code. The NFPA 101 Life Safety Code section 36.3.5, "New Mercantile Occupancies" requires a sprinkler system for the following:

1) Throughout all mercantile occupancies three or more stories in height.
2) Throughout all mercantile occupancies exceeding 12,000 square feet in gross area.
3) Throughout stories below the level of exit discharge where such stories have an area exceeding 2,500 square feet and are used for the sale, storage, or handling of combustible goods and merchandise.
4) Throughout multiple occupancies protected as mixed occupancies in accordance with 6.1.14 where the conditions of 36.3.5.1(1), (2), or (3) apply to the mercantile occupancy.

So how big is your basement? Is it more than 2,500 square feet?
For your local fire investigator to simply make reference to NFPA 13 is lame. That's like making reference to ICC 500 and then saying that your building needs to restructured in a way that it becomes a community tornado shelter.

See if this language is palatable for your local NFPA-certified fire investigator:

NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, Section 2.1(3)
Existing buildings or installation that do not comply with the provisions of the codes or standards referenced in this chapter shall be permitted to be continued in service, provided that the lack of conformity with these documents does not present a serious hazard to the occupants as determined by the authority having jurisdiction.

Otherwise, I am not seeing why a mixed occupancy building with mercantile and less than 12,000 S.F. needs to be sprinkled.

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IBC Certified Plan Reviewer
NFPA Certified Fire Plan Examiner

Thank you for your detailed response. I will submit my plans to the State for review and will post the results.