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Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

ConArb,

I would not and have not approved a head placement in the vicinity of the stove top since there are other means in which the room can be covered. Now in the event a water mist application was proposed for the stove top area, I would consider it after further analysis of the design.

Gene,

Excellent endevior that will hopefully produce some excellent insight.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

There is nothing wrong with protecting cooking surfaces with automatic sprinklers. It has been in NFPA 13 for a long time.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

I would agree with that and with regards to my last post....... I don't like seeing them directly over a stove top when an alternative location meeting the coverage of room exists.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

we need to remeber what a 13D is designed for

getting the people out of the building, and heads are not required in every room, yes they are required in the kitchen.

I would rather have the head closer to the stove, because that is where most apartments/house fires start!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Water is the preferred agent in 13R and 13D situations, even in kitchens. This investigation report has a greater impact on the use of anti-freeze systems. If glycerin and glycol based anti-freeze systems are a problem (only two reported incidents) what should be done?

Going back in history during the period when High Temperature Accelerant Arsons were occuring the temps of the fires were so high that water cracked and became a fuel.

Should anti-freeze systems only be used in areas where the fire temp will not combust the extinguishing agent?
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

cda said:
we need to remeber what a 13D is designed forgetting the people out of the building, and heads are not required in every room, yes they are required in the kitchen.

I would rather have the head closer to the stove, because that is where most apartments/house fires start!!!!!!!!!!
The incident report indicates that it was a full 13 system.

http://www.sierrasun.com/assets/pdf/SS61631222.PDF
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Sprinklers put water on the fire as small droplets that will quickly cool the grease to below the flash point of the oil. Sprinklers directly over commercial deep fat fryers are a special head that produces a very fine mist. The conditon in the video is boil over where the water is heavier than the oil and sinks to the bottom. It then boils and causes the oil above to violently react. There is a video of a huge boil over in a million gallon oil tank in South America.

Some of the fire service folks on this site can shed more light as to how they approach pool fires of combustible liquids. Especially if foam is not available.

The same principle from your chemistry class. You always add acid to water, not water to acid.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080202072039AAX8jwb
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

""""How come everyone is told to never put water on a grease fire?""""

Because you do not have the correct volume to extinguish the fire with.

""Some of the fire service folks on this site can shed more light as to how they approach pool fires of combustible liquids. Especially if foam is not available."""

go in with a fog pattern , and hopefuly you have two lines to help watch each other, and do not let the fire wrap around behind you. It is fun!!!!!!!

Or do it the John Wayne way and use Dynamite and blow it out.

Or just use a little more pressure:::

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/01/0 ... ank-w.html
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

One person's thoughts::::

"""""""""""In order to duplicate or test this hypothesis in an appropriate and valid manner, one needs to understand the hypothesis from a more fundamental level.

In order to cause a deflagration or explosion, there needs to be a fuel in the vapor phase that can mix with air to form a vapor mixture within its flammable limits. For this hypothesis, the fuel is identified as glycerin.

The glycerin in this case is initially in the liquid phase, thus, it must change from the liquid phase to the vapor phase.

Atomization can be employed to allow phase change from a liquid to individual droplets that, if small enough can behave as a vapor with respect to combustion of the droplets. Droplet sizes of less than 10 microns tend to behave as a vapor while droplet sizes of greater than 40 microns tend to behave like a spray where a flame surrounds each individual droplet. Droplet sizes associated with fire sprinklers tend to produce droplet distributions greater than 100 microns, so atomization alone of the glycerine may not be responsible for producing a phase change in the glycerine.

Another mechanism for a phase change from liquid to vapor is evaporation associated with the addition of heat. Vaporization of liquid fuels can involve both atomization and heating to produce a phase change from liquid to vapor. In this case, the introduction of the glycerine through a fire sprinkler and the transport of the droplets through a hot upper layer, ceiling jet, or thermal plume may induce a change in phase. This would then be a heat transfer and momentum problem to determine how much vapor could be produced. The amount of vapor produced would also be a function of the concentration and volume of mixture in the system.

In addition, the hypothesis seems to be that the glycerine is mixed with water, thus, it needs to be separated from the water to be an efficient fuel. Thus, the glycerine would need to be dehydrated to separate the liquid glycerine from the liquid water. This could potentially happen since the boiling point of water (100 degrees C) is lower than the boiling point of glycerine (290 degrees C). Again, the rate of heat transfer would determine the amount of vapor produced.

Once the liquid glycerine is separated from the liquid water, it must be further heated to change to the vapor phase. A competing factor to the boiling point is that the latent heat of evaporation is orders of magnitude higher for water than for glycerine. Thus, the water can absorb more energy before converting all of the liquid to a vapor. That is one of the most significant reasons why water is a good fire suppression agent.

The question to be asked is: what is the heat source that could produce such a phase change and is it sufficient to produce vapors of sufficient concentration to cause the damage that was experienced in this explosion/fire.

As the concentration of glycerine increases in the water, the conditions can become more favorable, but still may not be sufficient to case the explosion. A concentration of 100% glycerine might be the most advantageous condition, but most anti-freeze solutions for fire sprinkler systems are purchased in a pre-mixed formulation and pure glycerine has a much higher viscosity when compared to water, thus, it does not flow well as a liquid. Therefore, it unlikely that a 100% concentration of glycerine was added to the sprinkler system.

My initial "engineering intuition" does not provide me with a "warm and fuzzy" that this can happen especially since it does not seem to be a common occurrence. The argument could be that it takes a special set of currumstances to occur that infrequently occur. That is why the right hypothesis testing becomes very important.

While I believe I could construct sufficient conditions to produce such a vapor concentration, I am not sure I could produce it if constrained by the conditions at the time of this specific incident. This is why it is important to test this hypothesis with regard for the facts of the case as best that can be determined. Otherwise, one runs the risk of producing unreliable determinations.

At any rate, this is an interesting discussion and I appreciate the opportunity to try and contribute to the discussion.

Sincerely,

Doug Carpenter

Douglas J. Carpenter, MScFPE, CFEI, PE

Vice President & Principal Engineer

Combustion Science & Engineering, Inc.

8940 Old Annapolis Road, Suite L

Columbia, MD 21045

(410) 884-3266

(410) 884-3267 (fax)

www.csefire.com """"""""""""""
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

Per the report other buildings in the complex all had over 60% Glycerine present.

The flaming pan had been taken off the stove and moved towards the sink where it endedup.

The sprinkler was over the sink not the stove.

The description of the incident sounds more like a flash fire resulting low overpressures with subequent extinguishment by the sprinkler system once the all water arrived. Based on broken windows but intact walls.

I wonder what the static water pressure was, because higher pressures would result in finer droplets.

FM Global in their new sprinkler standard is limiting to 30% glycerine unless further testing is done and is removing the volume limit.

Dropping the pan of flaming grease or sloshing it out of the pan could also have resulted in a fireball and flash fire. I have seen severe burn injuries and broken out window from that sequence of events in unsprinklered kitchen fires although there was also extensive fire damage as well. Putting a solid stream of cold water from the tap into deep grease could also cause a flash fire by boilover/frothover. Report did not clarify if he had put water in the pan before sprinkler went off just that he intended to.
 
Re: Sprinkler System Blamed for Death

FyrBldgGuy said:
Onions contain sulfur compounds when cut the suflur is attracked to water thereby making sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid and glycerin is explosive. It was the onions.
What did they eat for lunch? Maybe it was methane. ;)
 
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