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Stages and occupancy classification

B

bill1952

SAWHORSE
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,573
Location
Clayton NY
Working on proposals for changes to section 410 Stages and one colleague wants to limit it to A1 occupancies. Certainly A3 with "places of religious worship" have stages, but what about A3 community hall? Does presence of a stage make it A? Or an A3 gym or A2 cafeteria with a stage? What would you expect them to be labeled and designed for?
 
But does it make it A1?

And if 49 people and a stage, does section 410 apply to the stage?

And then there's the stage equipment factory in Wisconsin with a really big stage and enough floor space in front of it for way more than 50 people, and not separated from offices or manufacturing area. But that is the odd one and should not be considered, I admit.
 
Straighten me out on this: A 700 to 800 seat auditorium facing a 3000 to 4000 SF stage that's 50' tall with curtains and lighting and stuff in the middle of a new high school. Is that occupancy A or E? I know everyone expects it to comply with the code requirements for A, maybe E also.
 
bill1952 said:
Straighten me out on this: A 700 to 800 seat auditorium facing a 3000 to 4000 SF stage that's 50' tall with curtains and lighting and stuff in the middle of a new high school. Is that occupancy A or E? I know everyone expects it to comply with the code requirements for A, maybe E also.
Click to expand...
mixed use E/A occupancy.
 
bill1952 said:
Straighten me out on this: A 700 to 800 seat auditorium facing a 3000 to 4000 SF stage that's 50' tall with curtains and lighting and stuff in the middle of a new high school. Is that occupancy A or E? I know everyone expects it to comply with the code requirements for A, maybe E also.
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We have always considered schools to be mixed use. A typical high school is mostly Group E, but will have at least three A areas: the gymnasium, the cafeteria, and the auditorium.
 
Most churches, community centers, "cafetoriums" and gyms have platforms, not stages.

Most code requirements for A occupancies are stricter than for E, except for corridor width.
 
steveray said:

303.1.3​

A room or space used for assembly purposes that is associated with a Group E occupancy is not considered a separate occupancy.
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I admit I don't know but wish someone could explain the difference between not a separate occupancy and mixed occupancies.
 
Paul Sweet said:
Most churches, community centers, "cafetoriums" and gyms have platforms, not stages.

Most code requirements for A occupancies are stricter than for E, except for corridor width.
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I believe a line by line reading of section 410 would show you the confusion between stages and platforms. And, unless you're enforcing definitions, there are very few requirements for platforms, basically only the materials used in the raised floor structure.

And for what it worth, the largest and most complex stage I've ever worked on was a church.

"BG]STAGE. A space within a building utilized for entertainment or presentations, which includes overhead hanging curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound."

This is what I see in gymnatoriuns, cafetoriums, churches, ballrooms, etc., in addition to in A1 theatres. A stage is a room a platform is an object, basically raised floor.
 
bill1952 said:
I admit I don't know but wish someone could explain the difference between not a separate occupancy and mixed occupancies.
Click to expand...
In that particular case....See what Tim M posted above....He's Shirley one of the smarter architects I have dealt with (probably because he comes here)....If the A functions are for the people that arte already in the school, during school hours, they are/ can be considered E...If there are "public" events, they are A.....

As far as "overall, the way to start is IF all of the uses meet the "worst cases" of Ch. 5 and Ch. 9 IBC....They are allowed to be non-separated...
 
Tim Mailloux said:
That is until those spaces are used after hours by the community for a function not associated with the 9am thru 3pm school use.
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bill1952 said:
I admit I don't know but wish someone could explain the difference between not a separate occupancy and mixed occupancies.
Click to expand...

Canuck gonna take a stab at this. Our local theatre club has a usage agreement for the middle school theatre. Plays are held after school hours, and members of the general public come to watch plays. That's a slam-dunky assembly use.
 
In my experience every school theatre is sometimes used for the public. One of my cautions in early design is to be prepared for requedts to use the space. Many are rented to outside groups. Many are rented to churches. I can't imagine a theatre - auditorium and stage - that isn't. Even try to design for that by being able to close off parts of the school so it can operate independently, and provide space for outside user groups - a room they can secure.
 
bill1952 said:
But does it make it A1?

And if 49 people and a stage, does section 410 apply to the stage?

And then there's the stage equipment factory in Wisconsin with a really big stage and enough floor space in front of it for way more than 50 people, and not separated from offices or manufacturing area. But that is the odd one and should not be considered, I admit.
Click to expand...
Getting back to this...Small A's are a B.....Not sure if the business model works, but I don't have to care....

303.1.1​

A building or tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group B occupancy.

303.1.2​

The following rooms and spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:

  1. 1.A room or space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
  2. 2.A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 square feet (70 m2) in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
 
But if there were a stage in a 49 seat room in a B, would you use section 410?

I think the debate is moot. If there a stage it needs to comply with section 410, regardless of occupancy classification or occupant load. (Of course that can get confusing between fixed seats, performers, ushers, technicians, etc.) I'll be careful in proposed changes to not use "assembly".

Thank you all!
 
bill1952 said:
But if there were a stage in a 49 seat room in a B, would you use section 410?

I think the debate is moot. If there a stage it needs to comply with section 410, regardless of occupancy classification or occupant load. (Of course that can get confusing between fixed seats, performers, ushers, technicians, etc.) I'll be careful in proposed changes to not use "assembly".

Thank you all!
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what is the size of the room and does this room have fixed seating or loose chairs? Are you also taking into account the occupant load of the stage / platform which is calculated at 1 person per per 15sf
 
bill1952 said:
I admit I don't know but wish someone could explain the difference between not a separate occupancy and mixed occupancies.
Click to expand...

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Mixed uses means there are multiple uses or occupancies within a single building. (:duh:).

Mixed uses can be separated, or non-separated. If the mixed uses have rated fire barriers between them, the overall building height and area are based on the most restrictive criteria applicable to each of the use groups involved, but things such as exit access travel distance are regulated within each fire area according to the use group.

In non-separated mixed uses, not only are the building height and area regulated by the most restrictive of the use groups involved, so are things such as exit access travel distance.
 
An auditorium with a stage by 2024 IBC at least is separated from the rest of the building so it is in its own fire area. (I'm still trying to figure out how to say 1 hour fire area in code language, better than section 410 says it now.

Interesting but a tangent from my op question.
 
bill1952 said:
An auditorium with a stage by 2024 IBC at least is separated from the rest of the building so it is in its own fire area. (I'm still trying to figure out how to say 1 hour fire area in code language, better than section 410 says it now.

Interesting but a tangent from my op question.
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It needs to be in a better location, not just the language…


410.4 Dressing and Appurtenant Rooms​


Dressing and appurtenant rooms shall comply with Sections 410.4.1 and 410.4.2.


410.4.1 Separation From Stage​


The stage shall be separated from dressing rooms, scene docks, property rooms, workshops, storerooms and compartments appurtenant to the stage and other parts of the building by fire barriers constructed in accordance with Section 707 or horizontal assemblies constructed in accordance with Section 711, or both. The fire-resistance rating shall be not less than 2 hours for stage heights greater than 50 feet (15 240 mm) and not less than 1 hour for stage heights of 50 feet (15 240 mm) or less.


410.4.2 Separation From Each Other​


Dressing rooms, scene docks, property rooms, workshops, storerooms and compartments appurtenant to the stage shall be separated from each other by not less than 1-hour fire barriers constructed in accordance with Section 707 or horizontal assemblies constructed in accordance with Section 711, or both.
 
Tim Mailloux said:
That is until those spaces are used after hours by the community for a function not associated with the 9am thru 3pm school use.
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Pet peeve alert.

Another vague term: "associated". Is a play associated with the school if it is the high school theater class whether it is 1pm or 9pm? IMHO code should not use these subjective terms, and we shouldn't need to rely on the commentaries to discern the intent, nor search up and down for the original intent of the proposal. And there shouldn't be such a wide gap in understanding or allowance from one AHJ to another. Even the commentary offers subjective language; "ancillary" and "supportive". Does the craft fair mentioned in the commentary raise money for the school? Is that supportive? Many can navigate these types of codes, but their use promotes all kinds of disingenuous proposals. I would prefer less vagueness in favor of more definitive language.

Just had a meeting about another school project. Relatively large assembly area for the stage, and an even more out of proportion gymnasium (multiple separate courts with bleachers). My high school had more students than the population of the entire town this will go in, but much, much smaller auditorium and athletic areas. The number of people calculated for the spaces is 2 or 3 times the population. Once can draw conclusions, but the first question I asked was about what these spaces would be used for. I was assured the only uses would be "associated" with the school.
 
Sifu said:
Pet peeve alert.

Another vague term: "associated". Is a play associated with the school if it is the high school theater class whether it is 1pm or 9pm? IMHO code should not use these subjective terms, and we shouldn't need to rely on the commentaries to discern the intent, nor search up and down for the original intent of the proposal. And there shouldn't be such a wide gap in understanding or allowance from one AHJ to another. Even the commentary offers subjective language; "ancillary" and "supportive". Does the craft fair mentioned in the commentary raise money for the school? Is that supportive? Many can navigate these types of codes, but their use promotes all kinds of disingenuous proposals. I would prefer less vagueness in favor of more definitive language.

Just had a meeting about another school project. Relatively large assembly area for the stage, and an even more out of proportion gymnasium (multiple separate courts with bleachers). My high school had more students than the population of the entire town this will go in, but much, much smaller auditorium and athletic areas. The number of people calculated for the spaces is 2 or 3 times the population. Once can draw conclusions, but the first question I asked was about what these spaces would be used for. I was assured the only uses would be "associated" with the school.
Click to expand...
school gyms are regularly used for rec league basketball games and school auditoriums rented out for dance recitals bu local dance schools. Those uses defiantly don't fall under the education (E) use of the school.
 
Not promoting one interpretation over another, just promoting better code writing.
 
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